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  1. #1
    jspeedy's Avatar
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    where's all the full contact panatukan?

    We've had a few "where's all the full contact...." threads and they've been enlightening in some aspects for me. So my question as indicated in the title is where is all the full contact Panantukan/Suntukan/dirty boxing ect. ? It doesn't necessarily have to be Filipino dirty boxing but there is a strong presence of dirty boxing in the FMAs. The problem is when you look it up there's not really any video that i've found of alive training Panantukan. I've seen a few videos of guys with head gear and gloves or MMA gloves who throw one prescribed and committed attack only to freeze and let the guy demoing demolish him. Panantukan is the flavor of the month lately in FMA culture lately and everybody seems to be doing it in demos. I know of some groups who amp it up and spar behind closed doors but I don't really train with them regularly. My system focuses on single stick, to me there are obviously a lot of techniques that carry over well to empty hand but we don't really have a term for it, it's just using what you know when you don't have a weapon.

    There are other boxing based systems (52 blocks, for example) but again we don't see a lot of publicly available sparring footage from the "dirty boxing" guys. A lot of what I see seems legit and relevant to the real world but I'd don't see much of it done in real time with a resisting opponent. Some things simply aren't safe to try with a real opponent but there are plenty of rules you could just remove from a boxing sparring session to allow for something more alive. It would be interesting to see a fight venue following the old Broughton ruleset which was much more permissive with standing grappling and some low line attacks.

    I like the idea of Panantukan it would be cool to see more of it. FMA is a new and growing art there are a lot of demonstration videos out there to give those outside our circles an idea of what the art can do. THere's nothing wrong with demos as long as you can pull off something that resembles the stuff you show in a demo in a real altercation. I just don't want to see FMA fall by the wayside and go the way of other more entertainment/performance based systems that are more removed from reality. Thoughts? Comments on Panantukan?

  2. #2
    Chili Pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    I like the idea of Panantukan it would be cool to see more of it. FMA is a new and growing art there are a lot of demonstration videos out there to give those outside our circles an idea of what the art can do. THere's nothing wrong with demos as long as you can pull off something that resembles the stuff you show in a demo in a real altercation. I just don't want to see FMA fall by the wayside and go the way of other more entertainment/performance based systems that are more removed from reality. Thoughts? Comments on Panantukan?
    The demos bug me, because yeah, it's a long string of technique with an unresisting opponent. I know as arnisadors we're supposed to translate from weapons technique to empty-hand seemlessly, but do we also have to import the shitty "my attacker strikes once and freezes" thing too??

    Everybody keeps adding more stuff on top of it, rather than paring it to its essentials. Its that baroque approach, that I think was responsible for things like the Dog Brothers developing.

    Here's a clip of my panantukan. Not full-contact, but you'll see elbows and guntings, etc. (I'm in grey, and before anybody says it, yes, I need to keep my lead hand higher)


  3. #3
    jspeedy's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing man! It's good to see something other than scripted technique, did you take the video down? I saw it this weekend but don't see it now. I've seen some good video explaining how to use panantukan like the one below but I don't really ever see anyone even doing some lighter work like you posted. The guys below don't show any application but he speaks from his experience sparring with boxers which I like. If you're gonna call something boxing or dirty boxing you should at least have some proficiency at straight boxing, than later add in the dirty stuff for street application. IMO boxing and punching are two different things, one is an art/sport and the other is a single technical skill. Lots of guys are "punchers" but if you haven't trained with a boxing coach you're not really a boxer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oNk8NHe2Ps

  4. #4
    Chili Pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    did you take the video down? I saw it this weekend but don't see it now.
    Nope, should still be there.

    I've seen some good video explaining how to use panantukan like the one below but I don't really ever see anyone even doing some lighter work like you posted.
    Yeah, I think for a lot of arnisadors, there's a lot of add-ons in their system. "Sure, we do empty hands, and double stick, espada y daga, staff, thrown weapons ... " With only so many hours in the day, some of that stuff is going to be vestigial. Empty hands, though, shouldn't be one of them - that's core material.

  5. #5
    jspeedy's Avatar
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    I see the vid now, must just be my virus invested pc that's the issue. I agree, a lot of systems seem to have the add on some develop more skill in the add on areas than others. I wonder how developed these skill originally were in the PI in some cases. This blog dips into the topic of FMA versatility somewhat (http://filipinofightingsecretslive.com) the writer mentions that now days a lot of FMA is quick to add in many other components but he suggests that this wasn't always the case. Instructors are quick to show the all encompassing aspects of their arts to sell it to guys who aren't necessarily looking for weapons training. To me FMA emptyhand in some cases is just using what you train when you find yourself without a weapon, it's only natural that you'll move in a certain trained manner. Surely you won't lay down and die because you don't have a weapon. I'd compare it like this: give a boxer a knife and he'll probably move relatively the same way when holding a knife. The boxer probably has a lot of good skills to bring to a knife fight, mainly distancing and movement, but boxers don't go around saying "oh we do knife fighting too". The boxer has tools to benefit a weapons scenario but unless he spends significant time working weapons he still probably won't be able to out perform a weapons specialist, and the same vice versa. Techniques may translate from empty hand to weapon but unless you practice both you won't automatically become skilled both by training just one method. Of course some FMA groups do specifically devote ample time to empty hand, my point is know your area of specialty and don't be so quick to jump on the bandwagon. Earlier this summer everyone was making FMA tomahawk videos, sure it's cool and it works but let's not get too carried away.

  6. #6
    Chili Pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    the writer mentions that now days a lot of FMA is quick to add in many other components but he suggests that this wasn't always the case.
    Agreed. IIRC, Angel Cabales maintained that the stick always was in his right hand, and the daga in his left, and because they had different roles, he trained them specifically in those roles.

    These days, it might not be quite as necessary to be that dogmatic. That said, adding stuff has to be done intelligently and with a rationale.

    To me FMA emptyhand in some cases is just using what you train when you find yourself without a weapon
    That's certainly what I've heard from old-timers, that empty-hands was what you did until you could get to a weapon (which is also reflected in the DB's Die Less Often material). In my practice, we focus on: single stick, single knife, empty hands. I'll occasionally bring in the gamut of other stuff (double stick, EyD, double knife, dulo-dulo, staff, flexible weapons, thrown weapons) but a lot of that I'll only do during our training retreats, and some of that is prefaced with "Okay, here's the ONE drill I know specifically for [whatever weapon]."

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    Similar to the OP, I have seen this behind closed doors. My old Modern Arnis group did live empty hand sparring for testing, but I haven't seem it much elsewhere. I am too new to PTK to have advanced far enough to see that, but I am told that live sparring is part of testing requirements at some point going forward.

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    One of the issues with FMA full contact is that it has the tendency to become bad Thai boxing or just sloppy western boxing with an awkward elbow here and there. There are legitimate ways to train dirty boxing and have it be effective but you have to be able to consistently land a jab or a cross and block those shots as well. I think many guys who don't box tend to drill extensively and that boosts their invincibility factor.

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    "I am too new to PTK to have advanced far enough to see that, but I am told that live sparring is part of testing requirements at some point going forward."

    I am curious about that statement, only because I have never heard that ever before. Who uttered such a thing? I infer from this thread that you are referring to empty hand sparring.

  10. #10
    Tacitus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    Thanks for sharing man! It's good to see something other than scripted technique, did you take the video down? I saw it this weekend but don't see it now. I've seen some good video explaining how to use panantukan like the one below but I don't really ever see anyone even doing some lighter work like you posted. The guys below don't show any application but he speaks from his experience sparring with boxers which I like. If you're gonna call something boxing or dirty boxing you should at least have some proficiency at straight boxing, than later add in the dirty stuff for street application. IMO boxing and punching are two different things, one is an art/sport and the other is a single technical skill. Lots of guys are "punchers" but if you haven't trained with a boxing coach you're not really a boxer.
    Don't want to seem like I'm pimping the system too much, but this is pretty much the approach Antonio Faedda takes in his Nudda system: a good level of boxing, then adding panatukan, and sparring it as much as is possible.

    A few examples:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9stYQVtJWCI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjqKhVHLRj4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOxOH_f9t50

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