Gong Sau Extravaganza 2013: Sirc vs. 3moose

[Lebell]

Just as Hiro and TS have given Lebell reason to doubt the seriousness of their training here by posting in a way that he finds sketchy.

That was the stupidiest thing of the thread for me, I was just reading you asking him, and him playing grabass, then I thought I'd ask cos TS should know im not out to get him or anything, and then the weirdness really started.
There was some really awesome bitchin and hissyfittin in this thread.

[Tranquil Suit]

That was the stupidiest thing of the thread for me, I was just reading you asking him, and him playing grabass, then I thought I'd ask cos TS should know im not out to get him or anything, and then the weirdness really started.
There was some really awesome bitchin and hissyfittin in this thread.

By you.


EDIT: "out to get him" ? *chuckle* Don't you people know this thread is SERIOUS?

[Rivington]

As I have said numerous times here, Zendo is training hard, and he and I have long since become friendly.

So? Is your relationship with Zendo now why I brought up the 600 hours? It is not.

As for this repeated hammering on "600 hours", I searched and it amounts to this single fragment of a post

Interestingly, what you said not a little while ago "I never said a fucking thing about "600 hours" regarding Zendokan at all"

I quoted that fragment to you in response. Now you're the one who searched it out?

Sorry, this is just more evidence that you are full of ****. You said you said nothing about 600 hours; I proved that you did. You were wrong, I was right. According to your own self-concept, you should be apologizing to me for intimating that I was making it up, and then graciously moving on. Instead, you're just changing your argument again to the claim that you only said one little thing about 600 hours.

Here's what you don't get Matt—you think you make careful statements. I actually do. You think you double-check before you post. I actually do. You think you can make a nuanced argument. I actually do.

For example, at least some of the 600-hour business you were going on about is in the members-locked VIP section, which is a bit more difficult to search out if you're using, say, Google.

Since the thread in question is in a filtered section, I'll just point you and anyone else who can see it to the following posts, made by you Matt, in the thread entitled "Zendo thread, inquiry closed" that involve you talking about the 600 hours: #122, #200, #236, #242. Btw, I did not bother going through the entire thread, I just cast around several pages of it.

This is Bullshido; evidence is important.

That's funny. When I give you evidence of your own statements, you don't act like evidence is important. Incidentally, you have sent me searching for your own quotes for the last time. One hundred percent of the time I provide them, one hundred percent of the time you either ignore them, minimize them, or pretend to find them yourself.

Evidence is important on Bullshido. It is not important to you. You only like to hear yourself type, and hang out, virtually, with people who train in the martial arts. Essentially, Matt, you are not even a hobbyist. You are a fanboy.

What happened on that train wreck of a thread was a culture clash between people who were active investigators, and people who weren't. Zendo acted and reacted in a way that Bullshido investigators reflexively find suspicious. He took his time undoing that impression, and when he finally did every one did a 180 and supported him fully.

The very best way to read this is as an admission that there was a problem with the culture of bullshido investigators if they were so sensitive to a "false positive." So what actions have bullshido investigators taken to inject a little common sense and basic reading comprehension into their praxis—you know, so they could be as discerning as the non-investigators who were correct? As far as I can see, none.

I apologized for my role in it.

I'm still waiting for a quote and a link. Evidence is important. Your context-free quote, which doesn't show up on a Google search, doesn't mean much.

You claimed earlier that my performance against Kintanon shows that I was not qualified to critique Zendo's kickboxing.

Where did I say this? Oh yes, what's your line again? "Quote or STFU." I mean, you did stick that bit of gibberish after this:


Indeed, you also started arguing with Lebell, who had very wisely suggested that we all wait for your video before taking your estimations of training time and ability seriously back then. And indeed, your big video featured eighteen seconds of waddlefucking around before you tapped out.

t

Now, does that say anything about a kickboxing match? No, it talks about training time and ability. Remember, you were big into the notion of the instruction-hour as a measure of ability, and Zendo had received instruction in a number of styles—MT, savate, BJJ, and 10th planet JJ. Your claim was that he must not have received the 600 hours of instruction he claimed, and you were half right because he didn't have 600 hours of instruction until after the match. (You were wrong simply because he never made any such claim, but your highly honed investigator-idiocy turned time inside out so that you could have a snipe to hunt.)

The issue isn't kickboxing or grappling, or my eye as regarding grappling, it's this: did Matt know what some quantum of instruction does to the person receiving it, regardless of the sport being trained, when he decided to hound Zendo about Zendo's instruction? Lebell's prediction, which turned out to be true, was No, Because Matt Has No Idea How Much He Is Going To Suck When He Makes a Video But It Will Be A Lot. And indeed, you did suck, as Lebell predicted you would.

Your error was almost a parody of science—you were the drunk looking for his lost keys only under the light of the lamp because it was too dark to see anywhere else. As was pointed out to you, a number of times, in the filtered thread, an hour of instruction is not a homogeneous unit. Who is doing the instructing, who is receiving it, what happens between classes with diet and training and motivation, etc etc? This is what led you to think Zendo must be hiding something, and what led you to believe that you wouldn't utterly embarrass yourself against Kin.

Wrong on both counts, ace.

Just to be clear: you, as someone with no known relevant experience, are judging my ability to eyeball beginning level kickboxing by my lack of grappling ability.

Just to be clear: no. I am judging your ability to measure accurately, based on the fact that you demonstrated an inability to measure accurately.

That was not

Then we are agreed that my example is accurate. That you sometimes, after sufficient public embarrassment, apologize online, does not mean that you are the gracious apologizer you claimed to be previously.

You're spinning narratives and you should stop.

No, what I am doing is actually reading what you write and am providing actual evidence for what I say. Then when you change your argument and forgot your own insistence that you apologize when wrong, I provide evidence for that too.

[Lebell]

By you.

Nope, not by me.
Don't try to convince me by bluff that you read this entire thread.

EDIT: "out to get him" ? *chuckle* Don't you people know this thread is SERIOUS?

But now we know and knowing is half the posting!
Thank GI bling bling!

[Lebell]

The issue isn't kickboxing or grappling, or my eye as regarding grappling, it's this: did Matt know what some quantum of instruction does to the person receiving it, regardless of the sport being trained, when he decided to hound Zendo about Zendo's instruction? Lebell's prediction, which turned out to be true, was No, Because Matt Has No Idea How Much He Is Going To Suck When He Makes a Video But It Will Be A Lot. And indeed, you did suck, as Lebell predicted you would.

Just call me Nostradamus. :P

I think what we all could take from this clusterfuck is: BALANCE.
Stick with what you know.
Let's say you're someone who is an investigator on here but not too experienced in ma's: ask a more senior member on that issue for his or her opinion.
Hell, ask a second.

Also, have some goddamn modesty.
If reasonable questions are asked, just fucking answer them.
A question doesnt need to be an inquisition, the more spastic the response, the more suspicious you''ll come across.

Balance: let's not get overly investigative, and lets also not get overly defensive.
As long as nobody is making outrageous claims it isnt that important.

[Tranquil Suit]

Nope, not by me.

ORLY?!

you're getting on my nerves with this bullshit.
be clear.

**** off.

edit: i'll elaborate: either you're trolling with your ask zendo remark ( which I really hope you are) or you are actually serious.
in case trolling: weak sauce.
in case serious: im asking you since you're being mysterious about it, then you tell me to ask zendo, wtf does he have to do with your training?
Im asking YOU about YOUR training.

Well I was asking, im not that interested anymore, I just find it strange why you didnt just answer it.

If he keeps this up I can see his forumleadership removed pretty soon.

You still don't get it, you're trying to be clever but I can see now you got some **** you're hiding.

Also official request to any moderator reading this: suspend his forumleadership until things are cleared up.
This is too retarded to allow.

So you cant answer it.
You should never been made a forumleader, you're a joke.

oh god....get this, this post got me a negrep from...HIRO.
Im starting to think that the euro TD has degenerated into some faggy circlejerk crew...

Stop talking, poser.

Leave other people out of it, be it Zendo or Hiro, hence I mentionned the rep, I couldnt care less otherwise.

Dont you feel like a joke, all that tough talking on the forum while not having anything to back it up with?

I think thats what has been happening here, the EuroTD got hijacked by some fags looking for an E-community, please piss off to 4chan and thanks for shitting up the eurobullies name.

Oh my im shaking in my little boots, such tough talk!
You can thank yourself for it by not listing any of your training, keep whining i should ask other people about it, and accepting to be a forumleader with (as I suspect) virtually no background in said styles.
If you're a grown up, or just a man for that matter, you stop acting like a little bitch and just speak up.

You keep avoiding this subject which makes my BS-meter go off.

You gave me every reason to assume you are a bullshitter.
Every assumption I had was justified because you were behaving really suspiciously.

To be honest, im still not convinced you are 100% truthfull right now, but there's nothing I can do about that so I just accept your answer.

After the 'sparring' YOU also accepted a TD fist and if your info is correct you shoulda known better and refused it.

To make it worse: the last TD was the biggest fucking bitchmove: no videos at all.

I would really like to see a video of the next TD, or just dont even bother having one because its descending into deep deep retardation.

If im there I'll make sure to film.
Your attitude does not match your weight pal, maybe you should have some humble-pie.

You're the one was has been very vocal and bitching the past 4 fucking pages.
'try showing up for once'?!
LOL, who's bitching now eh?
Try to be more relevant before talking the big talk.

lol...**** me you're lame.
go return your foumleader badge, it doesnt suit you.
Let Sirc have it.

Earth to Autism prime: you dont get to tell me when or what is enough.

So far you strike me as a bullshitter, somewhat full of himself, you sure seem to be more concerned with playing one of the cool kids on here than to..actually train.
Now what you do with criticism is your own business, but by the way you are handeling it I can tell you got completely different priorities.

Go return your forumleader badge.

I dont care about someones level or footage, I dont make fun of people for that reason.
Ill be very clear: I am not convinced TS has anymore than the very basic skills (which is fine) and he shouldnt be a forumleader.
Hiro all together has no bussiness on here, after his little bitchfest.

The point also is: if a TD degenerates into a tardfest with some flailing, talking into a camera and some backslaps while being 'expert on an internet forum, I rather drop by at the WC school down the street instead of spending money travelling to Belgium.

Its really hard for you to just stfu and take something from this huh?
Im actually trying to HELP you.
But you have to be honest with yourself first.

In the end you may fool several people on here or at a TD, but you're not fooling me, you seem to be far more concerned with your internetstanding and gatherings than to actually train and make the Bs-community a little less BS-sy.

He should give his forumleadership to Chris.
Let it be done!

I'll never ban anyone from a TD, its not my position to do so.

I wouldnt even let him run noobietown at this point.

You're trying to weasel your way out of it.
you could have simply stated what it was.
you werent being trolled, seemed more like you had a bad case of guilty consience.
people who have **** to hide tend to see traps everywhere.

Again, its not about the TD quality of skills, but of integrity.
On a NO NONSENSE MARTIAL ARTS website its kinda ridiculous to have someone like you to be a forumleader.
If someone would dream some **** up, throw some words in there, how you so sure you're going to recognise the bs?
You keep trying to change the point, the point is really fucking simple: be honest with yourself.
How come you and Hiro applied(?) for a TDfist, who was the drunken tard who approved it and why didnt you say all by yourself,that maybe you didnt meet the requirements?
You gladly took it.
Cos cool.
Same thing with you as a forummoderator, you took it, cos cool.

I'd rather make no contributions at all if thats all that matters..

You keep missing essential points.

yes, cry and run.
whatever it takes not to have to look in the mirror.

Hiro got butthurt, and now TS doesnt seem to be able to handle simple questions, its all insult and ragequits.
No sign of character.

Oh I missed this one.
Another one of those edited posts and obvious butthurted tone.
'I dont wanna play anymore, so im running away while going lalala cant hear you!'

It's sad to see how several people so far show no sign that they actually let things sink in, instead defense mechanism shoots up and hissyfits ensue.

Again with quite the mouth, while having preciously little to back it up with.
Whats wrong with you?
This is the second time you refer to me in a derigatory manner, you consider yourself more skilled than me?
First im a little bitch, now im referred to as a kid, whats up with that?
You starting to look like a second Hiro, you dont want to adress any points and keep being defensive.
This mindset wont get you anywhere, not in martial arts, not in life in general.

Fail again.
You try to 'reason' your way out of it.
Faulty logic used by me, or not: you got clearly and very quickly agitated, couldnt deal with the stress and resorted to insulting, and in this last post you do it again.

Well, I seem to be hitting a wall here with TS.

If anyone really thinks that is not relevant then I honestly dont know what to say, and I fear the worst for what (Euro) TD's will descend into, and with it the integrity of this community.

To me its really that simple.

Now look, I haven't been the most calm collected I can be on this thread. But brother Lebell, you've done a lot of bitching.

[Matt Phillips]

So? Is your relationship with Zendo now why I brought up the 600 hours? It is not.




Interestingly, what you said not a little while ago "I never said a fucking thing about "600 hours" regarding Zendokan at all"

I quoted that fragment to you in response. Now you're the one who searched it out?

Sorry, this is just more evidence that you are full of ****. You said you said nothing about 600 hours; I proved that you did. You were wrong, I was right. According to your own self-concept, you should be apologizing to me for intimating that I was making it up, and then graciously moving on. Instead, you're just changing your argument again to the claim that you only said one little thing about 600 hours.

Here's what you don't get Matt—you think you make careful statements. I actually do. You think you double-check before you post. I actually do. You think you can make a nuanced argument. I actually do.

For example, at least some of the 600-hour business you were going on about is in the members-locked VIP section, which is a bit more difficult to search out if you're using, say, Google.

Since the thread in question is in a filtered section, I'll just point you and anyone else who can see it to the following posts, made by you Matt, in the thread entitled "Zendo thread, inquiry closed" that involve you talking about the 600 hours: #122, #200, #236, #242. Btw, I did not bother going through the entire thread, I just cast around several pages of it.



That's funny. When I give you evidence of your own statements, you don't act like evidence is important. Incidentally, you have sent me searching for your own quotes for the last time. One hundred percent of the time I provide them, one hundred percent of the time you either ignore them, minimize them, or pretend to find them yourself.

Evidence is important on Bullshido. It is not important to you. You only like to hear yourself type, and hang out, virtually, with people who train in the martial arts. Essentially, Matt, you are not even a hobbyist. You are a fanboy.




The very best way to read this is as an admission that there was a problem with the culture of bullshido investigators if they were so sensitive to a "false positive." So what actions have bullshido investigators taken to inject a little common sense and basic reading comprehension into their praxis—you know, so they could be as discerning as the non-investigators who were correct? As far as I can see, none.




I'm still waiting for a quote and a link. Evidence is important. Your context-free quote, which doesn't show up on a Google search, doesn't mean much.




Where did I say this? Oh yes, what's your line again? "Quote or STFU." I mean, you did stick that bit of gibberish after this:


Indeed, you also started arguing with Lebell, who had very wisely suggested that we all wait for your video before taking your estimations of training time and ability seriously back then. And indeed, your big video featured eighteen seconds of waddlefucking around before you tapped out.

t

Now, does that say anything about a kickboxing match? No, it talks about training time and ability. Remember, you were big into the notion of the instruction-hour as a measure of ability, and Zendo had received instruction in a number of styles—MT, savate, BJJ, and 10th planet JJ. Your claim was that he must not have received the 600 hours of instruction he claimed, and you were half right because he didn't have 600 hours of instruction until after the match. (You were wrong simply because he never made any such claim, but your highly honed investigator-idiocy turned time inside out so that you could have a snipe to hunt.)

The issue isn't kickboxing or grappling, or my eye as regarding grappling, it's this: did Matt know what some quantum of instruction does to the person receiving it, regardless of the sport being trained, when he decided to hound Zendo about Zendo's instruction? Lebell's prediction, which turned out to be true, was No, Because Matt Has No Idea How Much He Is Going To Suck When He Makes a Video But It Will Be A Lot. And indeed, you did suck, as Lebell predicted you would.

Your error was almost a parody of science—you were the drunk looking for his lost keys only under the light of the lamp because it was too dark to see anywhere else. As was pointed out to you, a number of times, in the filtered thread, an hour of instruction is not a homogeneous unit. Who is doing the instructing, who is receiving it, what happens between classes with diet and training and motivation, etc etc? This is what led you to think Zendo must be hiding something, and what led you to believe that you wouldn't utterly embarrass yourself against Kin.

Wrong on both counts, ace.



Just to be clear: no. I am judging your ability to measure accurately, based on the fact that you demonstrated an inability to measure accurately.





Then we are agreed that my example is accurate. That you sometimes, after sufficient public embarrassment, apologize online, does not mean that you are the gracious apologizer you claimed to be previously.




No, what I am doing is actually reading what you write and am providing actual evidence for what I say. Then when you change your argument and forgot your own insistence that you apologize when wrong, I provide evidence for that too.

Anyone wondering why I think Bullshido has **** the bed should read this post. People do not keep training logs, attend TD's, fight, show video, or even pictures of training... and then spend years developing and refining the ability to generate internet smackdown out of anything.

I have sparred with, trained with, trained under or fought literally dozens of people from this site; I've been filmed, photographed and critiqued; I maintain a detailed log showing every thing I have done and not done, and I get called "fanboy" by someone who hides behind a keyboard day after day refining this cherished style of smackdown. If I am a fanboy then what does that make Rivington? For all this exquisite arguing over my qualification to critique others, I made sure to double check my assessment with qualified people like Sambosteve, and every single person that viewed the footage in question had essentially the same assessment as my own. The entire argument is moot. Not only did numerous qualified individuals all reach the same conclusion I did, but Steve posted his assessment numerous times all over that thread. Even if I am not competent, he is, and the critique loses no validity. I ALWAYS check my skills assessments against Sambosteve's expert eye. That is how I trained myself to spot this stuff in the first place. I know I'm not an advanced player, and always engage qualified people when I'm looking at footage for skill level.

For those in the peanut gallery, see if you can follow this:

You claimed earlier that my performance against Kintanon shows that I was not qualified to critique Zendo's kickboxing.

Where did I say this? Oh yes, what's your line again? "Quote or STFU."

Simple: you lacked the training experience to come to the conclusions you did about Rene.

See what he did there? If you're new here and reading this, don't grow up to be Rivington. Everyone makes mistakes; when I make them I apologize. Let's see if I get mine... I wouldn't count on it.

I do owe Riv an apology though, I did not read the relevant threads manually looking for things like "600+"; I just searched for "600" and found a single post (the same one he found). Proving a negative (ie: I never posted X) can only be accomplished by completing an exhaustive search, and the positioning of Zendo's thread in VIP makes that difficult. Still, I was wrong and he was right.

The very best way to read this is as an admission that there was a problem with the culture of bullshido investigators if they were so sensitive to a "false positive." So what actions have bullshido investigators taken to inject a little common sense and basic reading comprehension into their praxis—you know, so they could be as discerning as the non-investigators who were correct? As far as I can see, none.

And again, expertise counts for nothing; only the ability to spin a thread. If Rivington really believes MABS is full of type I error, he should speak up; that's serious.

Rivington doesn't train combat sports, but is qualified to judge who can offer critiques.
Rivington hasn't done any investigations, but is qualified to judge who does it well
Rivington doesn't fight, but is qualified to draw conclusions from the fights of others
He doesn't spar, he doesn't roll, he doesn't organize or attend TD's, he doesn't meet with other Bullies, or train with any. He doesn't do anything at all except hone this particular posting style.

If you want to draw conclusions from other people getting submitted by BJJ players, get on the mat with one for once. I'm 46 years old and I rolled with a BJJ brown for an hour yesterday and got subbed over and over. That's what this place is about. DO IT. Don't talk about me; do it.

[Tranquil Suit]

Anyone wondering why I think Bullshido has **** the bed should read this post. People do not keep training logs, attend TD's, fight, show video, or even pictures of training... and then spend years developing and refining the ability to generate internet smackdown out of anything.

In all seriousness, I thank Bullshido for this gift.


To be clear: I mean the opportunity, the breeding grounds if you will. Not the acquired mastery of... yet.



Also Matt, I'm sure Riv will have his way with this, but WHY IN THE **** are you still (YOU KEEP DOING THIS) making the same old Ad Hominem attack on Riv's MA/training etc. when it's clearly irrelevant to your logical fallacies (that he pointed out).

[Matt Phillips]

In all seriousness, I thank Bullshido for this gift.

Like anything, it all depends on how you use it.

Also Matt, I'm sure Riv will have his way with this, but WHY IN THE **** are you still (YOU KEEP DOING THIS) making the same old Ad Hominem attack on Riv's MA/training etc. when it's clearly irrelevant to your logical fallacies (that he pointed out).

I am not making a personal attack, I am pointing out that his inactivity puts him in a disadvantageous position to criticize others. It is really the same point he is trying to make against me, only I am actually trying to stay active, and he has done nothing at all.

Also:

I'm sure Riv will have his way with this

Don't be too impressed with this new smackdown-tool you've become so fond of, it's just 1's and 0's. We're fighting over whether or not people should be focused on improving their martial arts lives; "winning" the argument in favor of not doing so would be a pyrrhic victory at best.

[It is Fake]

I am not making a personal attack, I am pointing out that his inactivity IN COMBAT ARTS puts him in a disadvantageous position to criticize others who are training COMBAT ARTS. It is really the same point he is trying to make against me, using my belief system on COMBAT training, only I am actually trying to stay active, IN COMBAT ARTS and he has done nothing at all in COMBAT ARTS.

Fixed/pedant. He trains and comments about his training.