Gong Sau Extravaganza 2013: Sirc vs. 3moose

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 4:55pm

Originally Posted by ChuckWepner

The short answer is that you don't know what a self-refuting proposition is. I have a doctorate in philosophy, did extensive graduate work in epistemology, philosophy of language, and logic, and teach them (among other things), including at the doctoral level. You don't know what you are talking about. You may have learned what "self-refuting" meant at one time, but your recollection is clearly confused (or perverted as part of your sophistical self-deception in aid of your hypocrisy).

Mods, can you please cull this bit somewhere where disinterested people don't have to see the technical discussion/smackdown that's going to follow? Thanks Mods :)

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 4:55pm

Originally Posted by Permalost

Sun Tzu said that all warfare is based on deception, but that's probably because the Chinese didn't have a word for "logistics" yet.

They did.

"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…"
- Sun Tzu

**ChuckWepner** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 4:55pm

Originally Posted by Omega Supreme

I didn't know what self-refuting proposition was. I looked it up. I'm glad that you majored in bullshit to help me think that I would actually better off knowing what that was. Fuuuuuck.

A self-refuting proposition is one that can't possibly be true, typically because of something that it says about the nature of truth or meaning. For example, suppose I claim "No claim that can be expressed in English can be true." Well, that can't possibly be true, because if what it says were correct, it would follow that the claim itself couldn't be true.

Examples like that make it seem a pretty useless notion, because you would think that no one would be dumb enough ever to hold a self-refuting position. However, sometimes statements about truth or meaning that are more complex turn out to say in a disguised or indirect way something that precludes them from being true. In those cases, even quite bright people may not realize that their principle is self-refuting until it gets exposed by careful analysis. I can talk about an example if anyone wants. Or not. ;)

**Sri Hanuman** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 4:58pm

Hey Matt, if you're in Chicago within the next 2 months, we need to have a Midwest throwdown. Vodka and grappling. Never end well.

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 5:00pm

Originally Posted by Alex

also you only get to see your missus once a month? stink au

If you saw her, you wouldn't ask ;)

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 5:00pm

Originally Posted by Sri Hanuman

Hey, if you're in Chicago within the next 2 months, we need to have a Midwest throwdown. Vodka and grappling. Never end well.

Hit me up on FB (and check my background image while you're there)

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 5:02pm

Originally Posted by ChuckWepner

A self-refuting proposition is one that can't possibly be true, typically because of something that it says about the nature of truth or meaning. For example, suppose I claim "No claim that can be expressed in English can be true." Well, that can't possibly be true, because if what it says were correct, it would follow that the claim itself couldn't be true.

Examples like that make it seem a pretty useless notion, because you would think that no one would be dumb enough ever to hold a self-refuting position. However, sometimes statements about truth or meaning that are more complex turn out to say in a disguised or indirect way something that precludes them from being true. In those cases, even quite bright people may not realize that their principle is self-refuting until it gets exposed by careful analysis. I can talk about an example if anyone wants. Or not. ;)

Mods, please cull this **** somewhere else so I can take this douchebag apart without boring all of you to tears.

Omega maybe?

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 5:03pm

Originally Posted by Mr. Machette

Don't sweat Matt's butt hurt.
If you ever want to see who that guy really is just look up the video where his big mouth talked him right into the fastest armbar submission I've ever seen.

Here is a six year old doing the fastest armbar I've ever seen.

This is probably the best video posted so far in the thread, but that's just my noob opinion.

**ChuckWepner** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 5:07pm

Epistemic self-refutation, more properly called "self-defeat," is what happens when a proposition is such that it cannot possibly be known (or in more extreme cases, cannot even have any evidence in its favor). An obviously self-defeating proposition is the claim "There can be no knowledge." This claim could, in principle, be true, but if it were, we could never know that it was, for obvious reasons.

Again, the philosophically more interesting cases of this tend to be ones where a view has as an unintended consequence that if it were correct, then we could not know that it was correct. This doesn't show that the view is wrong, but obviously, it isn't a great feature for a view to have. Of course, people who endorse extreme forms of skepticism (views that hold that we have little or no knowledge or even little or no justified belief) tend not to mind when it is pointed out that their views are self-defeating.

"Epistemic" just means "relating to knowledge (or understanding)."

OK. I'm done. Now, who is Sirc gonna wrist-lock next?

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 12/04/2012 5:16pm

Originally Posted by Alex

he is another one of those guys whos gonna end up posting about that for a long time. yeah he could decide to train seriously etc but he wont cos he doesnt care enough. which is fine, cos **** man sometimes you dont want something that badly. this is why i mostly teach and dont fight often, other things like my girl and my business are more important to me. but i dont do the "woulda coulda shoulda" cos thats a dangerous lonely path to rudy levels of loser.

LOL other than a few very relevant times it came up here, how often have I mentioned it in say the last 20 months since we had our little post-mortem on the GS?

Put your money where your mouth is and make your opinion refutable. Pick a Bully (or better yet, and independent grappling instructor) and I'll go get my level evaluated. Hell, I'll even video tape it.

I haven't been in serious training in almost a year, but I'll still make it damn apparent to whomever that I put my time in on the mat to get where I should have been to fight Josh.

I am not butt hurt, angry or anything of the sort. What I am is unafraid to be seen exactly as I really am. That puts me well ahead of many. many people posting here. Yourself NOT included.