Gong Sau Extravaganza 2013: Sirc vs. 3moose

[Matt Phillips]

The culture here has fundamentally changed in several ways with regard the two main goals of the site were: Training and investigation.

When I first came here, this site had the reputation of being tough; a place where people actually trained hard or went to find out how to; where you needed a thick skin to survive as a noob (not get treated with kid gloves); and it was generally expected that the people you were speaking to actually trained (alive) – general members, forum leaders, everyone. Throwdowns were evidence of all this and you would actually meet the people from your area live. ****, even Sam Browning came to the TD’s to get smashed. Sadly, the site has quite the opposite reputation. There are barely a handful of “experts” here.

Using the NY throwdowns as an example, things have dwindled at Bullshido. At one time they were very active. The NY Mega was massive. The older throwdowns at Fighthouse were active. When I started hosting them at my club they were very active. But, over time, attendance dwindled. The same core group continued to come, but as they moved on in life, got their own training on, etc, the TD attendance thinned. Few new faces came to replace the older crew moving on. I believe the TD’s in most locations can say the same thing. This reflects a significant problem in how the purpose of this community is received by noobs and executed. And, what happened to the TD’s is a microcosm IMO of what has happened to the BS community at large.

With little incentive to stay on the forum or little time to participate as they once did, experienced people move on with no replacements of equal caliber. The site loses its “expert” resources and a self-fulfilling cycle of mediocrity festers like a necrotic wound. There are few “experts” here for the noobs to chat with and learn from. Cyber tough guys fill the void with little challenge. Many (most?) personal connections made on this site regionally were taken off line, and continue there today. This is at least my experience. I made many friends on Bullshido, and as the site’s focus shifted, most of them have left or at least functioning as lurkers.

For me, the main reason to come here years ago was the investigation aspect of the site. I really respected what Bullshido was trying to do. There was a time when Bullshido was THE GO-TO site when credentials were a question on any other site. Now, the investigation aspect of this site is dead. There has not been a full investigation article published in years.

Recently, I tried to see how the current culture on the site would handle an investigation handed to them on a silver platter:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=117916

I did all the major leg work and presented the thread in a way expected from investigators/thread starters years ago…research, facts, etc. But, far from complete. Ready to be worked on. Not too long ago, a good new thread in MABS would generate a dozen or so people who would immediately start researching, coordinating, working, and sinking their teeth into what would become a future article. It was expected that a good MABS thread would be received by a willing and able community who would immediately get to work. Not this time; barely a response at all. Years ago there was a sense of mission and everyone tried to chip in no matter their level of investigatory skill. This is no longer.

Some example of the ones I am proud of or think are fine examples are:
David Kujawski - http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation
(possibly our finest, most critical work)
Matthew Morton - http://www.bullshido.org/Matthew_Morton
Jimmy Lyons - http://www.bullshido.org/Jimmy_Lyons
Kristian Geraci - http://www.bullshido.org/Khristian_Geraci
(the one that spawned the Real Fighter artcile)

I really do suggest that some of the noobs read these if they want to know about what the site was once like.
There are many more: http://www.bullshido.org/Category:Investigations

Many people see the Chuck incident as the beginning of the end for the investigation aspect of the forum. But, in reality, the decline started long before that. Though, the chuck incident did clearly highlight the shifting attitude within the site’s community regarding the importance of practical martial skill and knowledge…in forum leaders especially.

The Chuck incident showed clearly that there was a Bullshido version of the “blue wall of silence” and that, because of Chuck’s willingness to finish investigations, the powers that be here were willing to sweep many things under the rug before the story went public…and the community at large would do the same after it went public. When those of us that were concerned about Chuck’s unethical (criminal?) behavior regarding investigations were getting nowhere with private off forum discussion, we assumed that exposing Chucks lack of martial skill would be a no-brainer for the community and open the door to addressing the more serious concerns with him. How could one of the site main investigators lie about his own credentials? But, we all know what happened. Yes, Chuck finally was banned (not from sociocide), but it was a painful process. Many people here did not like the possibility of looking in that same mirror regarding their own training and image on the site. The community circled the wagons. How could this guy pose his way into such a position of power at the site? It shone a light on some serious problems here. Those problems still exist as we can see. In any event, the result of the Chuck incident was a mass exodus of the most dedicated investigators or at least a decision to not be involved in investigations any longer (myself included). But, this was not only about Chuck. Chuck was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

In truth, Bullshido’s decline in the investigation realm started before all this. It came to a head when the debate was raging about substantiating Bullshido’s legitimacy as an investigative body. Were we journalists? Could we accept that role? Would that open us up to lawsuits? The general feeling of the powers that be was to hide behind the anonymous nature of the posters and open nature of the forum. The notion that the site did not edit threads and that anyone could freely post would save us from lawsuits. But we knew this was a crock. We did edit final articles and we wanted our legitimacy as investigators. But we could not have our cake and eat it too. Behind the scenes and in part on the boards, the debate raged about how to protect the site AND build our investigative wing. Paranoia over lawsuits killed us. True, myself and many others were named in suits against the site. But, for me and many others, that simply came with the territory. In the end, we blew it. Bullshido was set to blow up in a serious way. We fucked it up and never recovered what we had.

Our investigations were getting bigger and better, and we were addressing more serious topics outside the local mom & pop McDojo bullshit. Many noobs here probably have no idea as to the length we would go for investigations. The time came that we needed to **** or get off the pot. To become more legit we needed to evolve past what the site was. We discussed building a separate website specific for the investigation wing, separate from the forums; Like a cyber magazine so to speak. I had nurtured a relationship with Real Fighter magazine who published a story rooted in one of our investigations. The magazine was interested in a regular Bullshido column. We had our moment! We could build a new site and have published works on a regular basis. But this all went bust and I, who brokered the relationship with the magazine, was left looking like an idiot. We never published because there was too much debate over wording of the writer’s contract, who would take credit, who would get sued, who would defend a suit, etc. These were all important, but not unworkable details. In the end, we wanted to bust frauds, but were afraid of the natural consequences…possible lawsuits. Shortly after this, the Chuck event happened and killed the investigation aspect of the site all together. And, for me, the main reason for my presence here.

I am sure many will have differing versions of this story and there are things I have not mentioned in the name of brevity. But, this is the cliff notes version of how I see it.

*worships*

I can say as one of the core investigative group that the Chuck thing really did kill my interest in doing that sort of work again. You and I worked closely together on more than a few investigations, and I always found your martial arts knowledge, not just your Sambo specific knowledge, but your knowledge of gyms, people, styles and history to be a critical asset in making those investigations so effective. Chuck was very, very good at strategy, psychodrama, drawing the people we were looking out into making mistakes; he was smart, good at background checks(!), and had considerable technical IT knowledge. He was good and he was an asset; he also knew less than nothing about martial arts and it could be a problem at times. I remember having to explain to him several times why this
could not be real. Unlike practically everyone else in the conversation, he did not know that you never see Carlson Gracie's sig on a Gracie Torrance certificate. The feud between Carlson's side of the family and Helio's is common knowledge. That was the first time I noticed it, but it came up repeatedly. Finally he and I got in a row over whether or not Leo White might potentially lie to protect a student's reputation. I said it was unlikely, and that if he did it would be a waaay bigger deal than the investigation he was working on. I didn't get his position until I realized that he did not know who Leo White was. Bear in mind that Chuck had Judo as his listed style, and that Leo White is a Judo Olympian, and probably the most decorated national Judo player in US history. People know who Leo White is. Especially Bullshido investigators who practice Judo.

Chuck's problem wasn't that he didn't know anything about martial arts, it was that he didn't care to know anything about it. He was a non-martial artist who's sole interest on the site was attacking martial artists engaged in fraud. Note that POW Network, the site dedicated to outing Military frauds, is run by current and ex-military personnel, and not civilians who have an interest in busting stolen-valor cases. I bet they'd think a civy who wanted to do that sort of work was weird, suspect and out of place.

Investigating people who do something you don't understand or care to understand is dangerous, error-prone, and IMO unethical. Chuck didn't train, learn or care to learn about the martial arts, but was very enthusiastic about ripping them apart. The rest of us would have been very satisfied if we exposed the last MA fraud and there were no more to be found. Chuck would have been annoyed.

When he went off the rails, and the staff ignored calls to reign him in, he was exposed in public in a giant ugly clusterfuck that ended with my arm getting nicely stretched by Kintanon in North Carolina. A lot of people were repelled when it was made public that Chuck was somehow getting the SS#'s of people on the site (his recent similar behavior targeting Lebell over on Sociocide shows he hasn't learned a thing); horrified by what he did, but also by the staff's hesitation to get involved. Chuck had a lot of friends.

It was a giant mess, and it showed me clearly that everything here has to flow from interest in the martial arts, and not from skill at posting and the written word. Chuck was very good at both those things.

This is a martial arts site, and it needs people who are passionate about the martial arts, who have skill, knowledge and respect for it and for the people who practice it. I don't care if he never gets to an advanced level, the dude in hpr's story showed all three every time he struggled to find time to train. I think anyone who takes it seriously enough to make sacrifices is an asset to the site, regardless of how far they get. Passion shows.

Thank you Steve for bringing this up again, and for laying out what happened so clearly and eloquently. It's a touchy, painful subject for a lot of people, but it is past time someone brought it up in a sober manner.

Respect.

[Permalost]

Uhhhhhhhh my name isn't kung fu.

But those were your names, right?

And.......... it does own you.

Not anymore!

And.....I am an instructor

I tried that for 4 years, but decided I couldn't stop my journey there.

[cualltaigh]

This is a martial arts site, and it needs people who are passionate about the martial arts, who have skill, knowledge and respect for it and for the people who practice it. I don't care if he never gets to an advanced level, the dude in hpr's story showed all three every time he struggled to find time to train. I think anyone who takes it seriously enough to make sacrifices is an asset to the site, regardless of how far they get. Passion shows.

I disagree, I think Kerpo is still a whiny bitch and needs to shove that violin that he's playing for himself square up his arse. I don't read passion in that story at all, an interest in martial arts sure, but no passion.

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, training isn't the only way to get involved in a sport. Can't make training, cool. Get involved in another way. Just stop making excuses for yourself because life gets a little hard.

[hpr]

Seriously? There's so many hints of photoshopping there just looking at the picture, not the content that you have to be more than half-blind to not see them.

[Matt Phillips]

Seriously? There's so many hints of photoshopping there just looking at the picture, not the content that you have to be more than half-blind to not see them.

Enhanced to show edits





Overlay on original (authentic) cert



It helps to see this one full sjze: http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...ky/overlay.jpg

[hpr]

Where in the story was he whining? Was he puffing his feathers on bullshido all along? Is he criticizing other when he does not know his ass from chocolate donut? If not there is nothing wrong with kerpo. If he has been posing as mr bad ass on line, then he can suck my balls. In your story he does not suck because he is a hobbyist. He sucks because he chose different priorities in life. This is fine.

Bottom line, most martial artists are hobbyists. Some suck and some don't. But if they blame their suckitude on being a hobbyist, rather than the truth that they may have other priorities, injuries, or just lack of intent to commit to it, then they are full of ****.

This discussion is not about sucking. It is about making excuses for sucking, or misrepresenting ones self here.

I agree on all of your points. However what my truly long-winded story-of-a-post was trying to point out is what happens over and over on this board: People get sneered for not improving over time, and the typical generalisation seems to be that they must be lazy and unmotivated. And if they point out that they do in fact have different priorities in life it's almost always taken as an excuse.

[Matt Phillips]

I disagree, I think Kerpo is still a whiny bitch and needs to shove that violin that he's playing for himself square up his arse. I don't read passion in that story at all, an interest in martial arts sure, but no passion.

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, training isn't the only way to get involved in a sport. Can't make training, cool. Get involved in another way. Just stop making excuses for yourself because life gets a little hard.

I TOLD you, I prefer that he is called TIMMO. Either that or Jorma. I always liked 'Jorma' for a boy.

[Matt Phillips]

I agree on all of your points. However what my truly long-winded story-of-a-post was trying to point out is what happens over and over on this board: People get sneered for not improving over time, and the typical generalisation seems to be that they must be lazy and unmotivated. And if they point out that they do in fact have different priorities in life it's almost always taken as an excuse.

I am supposed to be the big, bad sneerer of videos. Did I sneer at your grappling? Nope. I don't know about other people, but I have no problem with people looking like they put in some work, because it shows that they are onboard and learning. I know what it feels like to have to struggle to find time to train (I was alone with a small child for years). I have a problem with people being on the board for years and still showing n00bspaz in the style they've been claiming. Your n00bspaz is long gone. Everybody should get trained up to as high a level as possible, given their circumstances, and should be honest about it along the way.

[hpr]

I am supposed to be the big, bad sneerer of videos. Did I sneer at your grappling? Nope. I don't know about other people, but I have no problem with people looking like they put in some work, because it shows that they are onboard and learning. I know what it feels like to have to struggle to find time to train (I was alone with a small child for years). I have a problem with people being on the board for years and still showing n00bspaz in the style they've been claiming. Your n00bspaz is long gone. Everybody should get trained up to as high a level as possible, given their circumstances, and should be honest about it along the way.

While I was using the story I know best, ie. myself as an inspiration for Kerpo, Kerpo isn't me. And I hear what you're saying, but it doesn't change the point I was making.

I also realize I might have just gotten a bit butthurt over a pretty silly thing last night prompting me to write that. It was meant as a reminder to consider these things before you (meant in the general sense, stupid English language) start spouting **** about others.

EDIT: That and I like to write stories.

[Matt Phillips]

While I was using the story I know best, ie. myself as an inspiration for Kerpo, Kerpo isn't me. And I hear what you're saying, but it doesn't change the point I was making.

I also realize I might have just gotten a bit butthurt over a pretty silly thing last night prompting me to write that. It was meant as a reminder to consider these things before you (meant in the general sense, stupid English language) start spouting **** about others.

EDIT: That and I like to write stories.

I have had my share of getting sneered at on video.