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  1. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 12:34am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    LOL what rock have you been under? Moose went for Tai Otoshi and Sirc countered with a pretty sweet Osoto, landed in side control and hit a heel hook in a scramble. Moose ragequit and Sirc got a Hall of Fame tag

    This is how I will choose to remember this thread, regardless of reality.
      #1901
  2. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 12:43am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    You are a model for what anybody with a red name should be. But as for being a resource at all, it is being diminished greatly by the underscore of childish futility that hallmarks bullshido's attitude toward the MA community in general.
    1. I'm just some dude who is honest about the fact that all I do martially is hug other men in pajamas.

    2. There is truth in what you say. There is no doubt the culture here tends to reflexively paint anything that's outside the MMA skill set with a negative brush. Regardless, I choose to stay and try my best to be a positive influence. The record shows that I don't always succeed, but that doesn't mean I'm going to quit trying.
    Shut the hell up and train.
      #1902
  3. sambosteve is offline
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    Stillness is death

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 12:44am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    I don't disagree with what your opinion SamboSteve, but I believe the site's mission was three fold. Training, investigation and education. Specifically, educating new and existing martial consumers about the concept of aliveness.

    While the investigations have fallen off, there is still a need for a consumer advocacy site in the martial arts. Love it or leave it, Bullshido is still the best resource for educating people who are new to martial arts what they need to look for in an effective MA.
    I don't disagree about education as a mission. I just lumped it in with training. But, I can see it as apart as well. Is bullshido any more of an educational source than some other sites, sadly I think that is debatable. The martial arts world has evolved and whatever Bullshido does offer, I don't this is unique any longer.
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
      #1903
  4. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 12:49am

    forum leader
     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    0
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    You're not only one that spars. Alive is a catch phrase to make people that spar feel superior over other people that spar, its a panacea. Also, by you're profile, you're kind of a Teflon student. You don't stick to anything. Soooo whatever..........

    And, the only one going off into a tizzy is YOU. I'm cool as a cucumber. You somehow feel that you're entitled to something by being here, you're not. I don't have any stake in this place. I did once well before you joined. As for this site, you were born yesterday. I don't have any history with you, soooo whatever.
    You're right, you had no history with me, yet you chose to engage my post that had **** all to do with you, wasn't addressed to you and when I tried to give an example that didn't pander to your attempt at trolling, you still had at it. You are a pathetic weasel of a man and have proven this time and time again, I've watched you engage with several posters over the years and you always struck me as a wanker, one who at school would instigate and then call for the teacher. You've even done it here, sucking up to jnp.

    I like the Teflon student thing, though. Kevlar underneath it all. I like that you spent the time to research me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
      #1904
  5. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 12:51am

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     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    Just to remind you of where the vitriol started.
    It is actually amusing that you saw my explanation of my meaning as vitriolic, even more interesting that you thought it was directed toward you. It was not, you took it that way. Your next post was where the vitriol started.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
      #1905
  6. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 12:55am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    Beyond just style bias there is also a definite sense of entitlement fostered in people to be abrasive asses even to people who are far more experienced.
    While that maybe true, the mirror image indicates that a person who thinks they automatically deserve respect merely because of their more extensive experience is guilty of the same sense of entitlement.

    I've said this to myself on numerous occasions.
    Shut the hell up and train.
      #1906
  7. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 1:01am

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     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Keep editing that post, Rudy, you might just get it right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
      #1907
  8. cualltaigh is online now
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 1:05am


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    1. I'm just some dude who is honest about the fact that all I do martially is hug other men in pajamas.
    Forgive me for saying, and perhaps they do it differently in Texas, but generally when I'm merely hugging someone it is not from a position where I have to be mindful not to snap their limbs like a twig. I think you're selling yourself a little short.

    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    2. There is truth in what you say. There is no doubt the culture here tends to reflexively paint anything that's outside the MMA skill set with a negative brush. Regardless, I choose to stay and try my best to be a positive influence. The record shows that I don't always succeed, but that doesn't mean I'm going to quit trying.
    I don't know that I necessarily agree with the first half of your position here. Before this site I had never heard of (let alone come to appreciate) Sanda/Sanshou and there exists respect for many skills outside the MMA skillset (e.g. FMA). Whilst MMA does get alot of attention here, IMO it is due to its suitability as a testing ground rather than being a pinnacle of styles (if you accept that it is one). I do agree that you are a positive influence here.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
      #1908
  9. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 1:27am

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve View Post
    The culture here has fundamentally changed in several ways with regard the two main goals of the site were: Training and investigation.

    When I first came here, this site had the reputation of being tough; a place where people actually trained hard or went to find out how to; where you needed a thick skin to survive as a noob (not get treated with kid gloves); and it was generally expected that the people you were speaking to actually trained (alive) – general members, forum leaders, everyone. Throwdowns were evidence of all this and you would actually meet the people from your area live. ****, even Sam Browning came to the TD’s to get smashed. Sadly, the site has quite the opposite reputation. There are barely a handful of “experts” here.

    Using the NY throwdowns as an example, things have dwindled at Bullshido. At one time they were very active. The NY Mega was massive. The older throwdowns at Fighthouse were active. When I started hosting them at my club they were very active. But, over time, attendance dwindled. The same core group continued to come, but as they moved on in life, got their own training on, etc, the TD attendance thinned. Few new faces came to replace the older crew moving on. I believe the TD’s in most locations can say the same thing. This reflects a significant problem in how the purpose of this community is received by noobs and executed. And, what happened to the TD’s is a microcosm IMO of what has happened to the BS community at large.

    With little incentive to stay on the forum or little time to participate as they once did, experienced people move on with no replacements of equal caliber. The site loses its “expert” resources and a self-fulfilling cycle of mediocrity festers like a necrotic wound. There are few “experts” here for the noobs to chat with and learn from. Cyber tough guys fill the void with little challenge. Many (most?) personal connections made on this site regionally were taken off line, and continue there today. This is at least my experience. I made many friends on Bullshido, and as the site’s focus shifted, most of them have left or at least functioning as lurkers.

    For me, the main reason to come here years ago was the investigation aspect of the site. I really respected what Bullshido was trying to do. There was a time when Bullshido was THE GO-TO site when credentials were a question on any other site. Now, the investigation aspect of this site is dead. There has not been a full investigation article published in years.

    Recently, I tried to see how the current culture on the site would handle an investigation handed to them on a silver platter:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=117916

    I did all the major leg work and presented the thread in a way expected from investigators/thread starters years ago…research, facts, etc. But, far from complete. Ready to be worked on. Not too long ago, a good new thread in MABS would generate a dozen or so people who would immediately start researching, coordinating, working, and sinking their teeth into what would become a future article. It was expected that a good MABS thread would be received by a willing and able community who would immediately get to work. Not this time; barely a response at all. Years ago there was a sense of mission and everyone tried to chip in no matter their level of investigatory skill. This is no longer.

    Some example of the ones I am proud of or think are fine examples are:
    David Kujawski - http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation
    (possibly our finest, most critical work)
    Matthew Morton - http://www.bullshido.org/Matthew_Morton
    Jimmy Lyons - http://www.bullshido.org/Jimmy_Lyons
    Kristian Geraci - http://www.bullshido.org/Khristian_Geraci
    (the one that spawned the Real Fighter artcile)

    I really do suggest that some of the noobs read these if they want to know about what the site was once like.

    There are many more: http://www.bullshido.org/Category:Investigations

    Many people see the Chuck incident as the beginning of the end for the investigation aspect of the forum. But, in reality, the decline started long before that. Though, the chuck incident did clearly highlight the shifting attitude within the site’s community regarding the importance of practical martial skill and knowledge…in forum leaders especially.

    The Chuck incident showed clearly that there was a Bullshido version of the “blue wall of silence” and that, because of Chuck’s willingness to finish investigations, the powers that be here were willing to sweep many things under the rug before the story went public…and the community at large would do the same after it went public. When those of us that were concerned about Chuck’s unethical (criminal?) behavior regarding investigations were getting nowhere with private off forum discussion, we assumed that exposing Chucks lack of martial skill would be a no-brainer for the community and open the door to addressing the more serious concerns with him. How could one of the site main investigators lie about his own credentials? But, we all know what happened. Yes, Chuck finally was banned (not from sociocide), but it was a painful process. Many people here did not like the possibility of looking in that same mirror regarding their own training and image on the site. The community circled the wagons. How could this guy pose his way into such a position of power at the site? It shone a light on some serious problems here. Those problems still exist as we can see. In any event, the result of the Chuck incident was a mass exodus of the most dedicated investigators or at least a decision to not be involved in investigations any longer (myself included). But, this was not only about Chuck. Chuck was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

    In truth, Bullshido’s decline in the investigation realm started before all this. It came to a head when the debate was raging about substantiating Bullshido’s legitimacy as an investigative body. Were we journalists? Could we accept that role? Would that open us up to lawsuits? The general feeling of the powers that be was to hide behind the anonymous nature of the posters and open nature of the forum. The notion that the site did not edit threads and that anyone could freely post would save us from lawsuits. But we knew this was a crock. We did edit final articles and we wanted our legitimacy as investigators. But we could not have our cake and eat it too. Behind the scenes and in part on the boards, the debate raged about how to protect the site AND build our investigative wing. Paranoia over lawsuits killed us. True, myself and many others were named in suits against the site. But, for me and many others, that simply came with the territory. In the end, we blew it. Bullshido was set to blow up in a serious way. We fucked it up and never recovered what we had.

    Our investigations were getting bigger and better, and we were addressing more serious topics outside the local mom & pop McDojo bullshit. Many noobs here probably have no idea as to the length we would go for investigations. The time came that we needed to **** or get off the pot. To become more legit we needed to evolve past what the site was. We discussed building a separate website specific for the investigation wing, separate from the forums; Like a cyber magazine so to speak. I had nurtured a relationship with Real Fighter magazine who published a story rooted in one of our investigations. The magazine was interested in a regular Bullshido column. We had our moment! We could build a new site and have published works on a regular basis. But this all went bust and I, who brokered the relationship with the magazine, was left looking like an idiot. We never published because there was too much debate over wording of the writer’s contract, who would take credit, who would get sued, who would defend a suit, etc. These were all important, but not unworkable details. In the end, we wanted to bust frauds, but were afraid of the natural consequences…possible lawsuits. Shortly after this, the Chuck event happened and killed the investigation aspect of the site all together. And, for me, the main reason for my presence here.

    I am sure many will have differing versions of this story and there are things I have not mentioned in the name of brevity. But, this is the cliff notes version of how I see it.
    *worships*

    I can say as one of the core investigative group that the Chuck thing really did kill my interest in doing that sort of work again. You and I worked closely together on more than a few investigations, and I always found your martial arts knowledge, not just your Sambo specific knowledge, but your knowledge of gyms, people, styles and history to be a critical asset in making those investigations so effective. Chuck was very, very good at strategy, psychodrama, drawing the people we were looking out into making mistakes; he was smart, good at background checks(!), and had considerable technical IT knowledge. He was good and he was an asset; he also knew less than nothing about martial arts and it could be a problem at times. I remember having to explain to him several times why this
    could not be real. Unlike practically everyone else in the conversation, he did not know that you never see Carlson Gracie's sig on a Gracie Torrance certificate. The feud between Carlson's side of the family and Helio's is common knowledge. That was the first time I noticed it, but it came up repeatedly. Finally he and I got in a row over whether or not Leo White might potentially lie to protect a student's reputation. I said it was unlikely, and that if he did it would be a waaay bigger deal than the investigation he was working on. I didn't get his position until I realized that he did not know who Leo White was. Bear in mind that Chuck had Judo as his listed style, and that Leo White is a Judo Olympian, and probably the most decorated national Judo player in US history. People know who Leo White is. Especially Bullshido investigators who practice Judo.

    Chuck's problem wasn't that he didn't know anything about martial arts, it was that he didn't care to know anything about it. He was a non-martial artist who's sole interest on the site was attacking martial artists engaged in fraud. Note that POW Network, the site dedicated to outing Military frauds, is run by current and ex-military personnel, and not civilians who have an interest in busting stolen-valor cases. I bet they'd think a civy who wanted to do that sort of work was weird, suspect and out of place.

    Investigating people who do something you don't understand or care to understand is dangerous, error-prone, and IMO unethical. Chuck didn't train, learn or care to learn about the martial arts, but was very enthusiastic about ripping them apart. The rest of us would have been very satisfied if we exposed the last MA fraud and there were no more to be found. Chuck would have been annoyed.

    When he went off the rails, and the staff ignored calls to reign him in, he was exposed in public in a giant ugly clusterfuck that ended with my arm getting nicely stretched by Kintanon in North Carolina. A lot of people were repelled when it was made public that Chuck was somehow getting the SS#'s of people on the site (his recent similar behavior targeting Lebell over on Sociocide shows he hasn't learned a thing); horrified by what he did, but also by the staff's hesitation to get involved. Chuck had a lot of friends.

    It was a giant mess, and it showed me clearly that everything here has to flow from interest in the martial arts, and not from skill at posting and the written word. Chuck was very good at both those things.

    This is a martial arts site, and it needs people who are passionate about the martial arts, who have skill, knowledge and respect for it and for the people who practice it. I don't care if he never gets to an advanced level, the dude in hpr's story showed all three every time he struggled to find time to train. I think anyone who takes it seriously enough to make sacrifices is an asset to the site, regardless of how far they get. Passion shows.

    Thank you Steve for bringing this up again, and for laying out what happened so clearly and eloquently. It's a touchy, painful subject for a lot of people, but it is past time someone brought it up in a sober manner.

    Respect.
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 11/29/2012 1:32am at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
      #1909
  10. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2012 2:02am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuAbel View Post
    Uhhhhhhhh my name isn't kung fu.
    But those were your names, right?

    And.......... it does own you.
    Not anymore!
    And.....I am an instructor
    I tried that for 4 years, but decided I couldn't stop my journey there.
      #1910

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