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  1. #21
    Kintanon's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The reason you see stuff like berimbolos and upside down guard and other ridiculous **** in high level competition is that those guys have all already put thousands of hours into the basics. The chances of catching another high level blackbelt with a guillotine from guard is vanishingly small. So you start looking for things that will bring your opponent into an area they are less familiar with. If you've repped a sweep 1000 times, but your opponent has never seen it before then BAM instant advantage.

    The underlying foundation that people miss is that it doesn't work unless you HAVE drilled the **** out of the basics. If you are berimbolo MACHINE but you have no basic pass defense or grip control or a million other things then you never get a chance to use that berimbolo. Those fancy 'sport' techniques are what high level guys use on each other to try to find a tiny edge. They aren't the bulk of anyones game. The Ryan Hall video from a few months ago is a perfect example. This is the guy who was widely ridiculed for 50/50 and upside down guard as being a guy who built his BJJ Career on gimmicks. What did he do in an actual altercation? Take down, mount. Super basic.

  2. #22

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do Combat Jiu Jitsu with Eddie Bravo, bro.

  3. #23

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My Professor always told us that BJJ is comprised of three components or styles, self defense, vale-tudo and competition. By training in all three a student can be well rounded in his abilities. At my academy my main priority is to train my students to fight and preparing them for competition comes second. Do my students suffer at tournaments because of the way I teach. No, they actually do quite well at competitions so I know it is possible to be able still teach self defense and still have good competitors.

    The only problem I see today is that a lot of schools concentrate a 100% on competition and leave out the fighting aspect which is a shame because that is why Jiu-Jitsu was developed for in the first place. This why you see some BJJ black belts get their asses handed to them in MMA events because they never trained in BJJ for fighting and they have to play catch up as if they had to start over again when they could have simply could of learned it from day one of their Jiu-Jitsu training.

    This is one of the reasons why Carlson Gracie had the best fighters/competitors in Brazil because he taught all three components in his academy. This is why Nova Uniao, BTT, and ATT do well in MMA and competition as well because of Carlson's influence.

  4. #24
    <plasma>'s Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I tend to lean on the side that tournament Jiu Jitsu techniques requires a good understanding of Jiu Jitsu basics to be effective. For example, I use a single leg takedown entry to pull 1 Leg X guard. Just because I choose to sit and finish doesn't mean I don't know how to finish the single leg. In fact it's the real threat of the takedown that gives me the opportunity to sit underneath. In a self defense scenario I would finish the single and stay on top, however against another trained fighter I need a trick or two up my sleeve to deal with their trained defense.

    In fact, the first year of Jiu Jitsu is learning to deal with an untrained opponent. Pass that you a learning to defeat other trained fighters. Just because these tricks are highly specialized doesn't mean Jiu Jitsu has lost anything, just that its advancing so fast the effective self defense section is just the basics class as most academies.

  5. #25

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If whatever you plan on using in a real fight if it does not work with punches during sparring sessions it will most likely will not work on the streets. I have seen numerous times guys that visit my school who train at sport-only BJJ schools get a wake up call when they try to spar with strikes. They do not realize they leave themselves open to strikes because they don't train that way and they develop bad habits.

    There is a misconception within the BJJ community that training for tournaments only will help a person in a real fight. This is far from the truth. If you don't train to fight you are not going to be ready for a altercation on the streets and all the X-guard and inverted guard is not going to work when someone is trying to punch you in the face unless you train for this with realism and that means putting on gloves and have your sparring partners try to beat the crap out of you during training.

  6. #26
    <plasma>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    If whatever you plan on using in a real fight if it does not work with punches during sparring sessions it will most likely will not work on the streets. I have seen numerous times guys that visit my school who train at sport-only BJJ schools get a wake up call when they try to spar with strikes. They do not realize they leave themselves open to strikes because they don't train that way and they develop bad habits.

    There is a misconception within the BJJ community that training for tournaments only will help a person in a real fight. This is far from the truth. If you don't train to fight you are not going to be ready for a altercation on the streets and all the X-guard and inverted guard is not going to work when someone is trying to punch you in the face unless you train for this with realism and that means putting on gloves and have your sparring partners try to beat the crap out of you during training.
    I think that is an answer to a different question. Of course training for MMA or at least Jiu Jitsu with strikes translates to a more real encounter. My comment had to so with the fact that in order to play guard like X or Inverted you need the core fundamentals that translates to self defense. You can't skip things like combat stand up, hip movement and and securing the back and go right into an inverted spider triangle setup. But when you are competing with other people that are equally skilled you need a few tricks to give you an edge under that rule set.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    For example, I have noticed in my recent training with jnp, that my more sambo-oriented approach to groundwork makes for a different game. He can still catch me 10 times out of 10, but I am starting to see how sambo strategy can trump BJJ strategy in some ways... with pinning, for instance.

    The flipside, of course, is that the sambo, wrestling, and judo strategy of turtling is not as strong as regaining guard.
    Actually I combine both strategies.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    I think that is an answer to a different question. Of course training for MMA or at least Jiu Jitsu with strikes translates to a more real encounter. My comment had to so with the fact that in order to play guard like X or Inverted you need the core fundamentals that translates to self defense. You can't skip things like combat stand up, hip movement and and securing the back and go right into an inverted spider triangle setup. But when you are competing with other people that are equally skilled you need a few tricks to give you an edge under that rule set.
    I'm not sure if I agree with you on this one, I'm more in the mind set with Team Python. I don't think it's a separate question. You're missing a vital part of your training and this is what I see of most schools.

    (Really? Combat stand up? I never get tired of all these interesting names.)

  9. #29
    <plasma>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I'm not sure if I agree with you on this one, I'm more in the mind set with Team Python. I don't think it's a separate question. You're missing a vital part of your training and this is what I see of most schools.

    (Really? Combat stand up? I never get tired of all these interesting names.)
    BJJ is missing something like Boxing is missing something. It's a specialization of a specific skill set. Boxing isn't going the wrong direction because they don't train to defend
    a wrestling shot. So your issue isn't that BJJ is going to wrong direction, it's people don't train in a well round skill set but train for specific competitions. That's going to be true for any combat sport that isn't MMA or MMA-like.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    BJJ is missing something like Boxing is missing something. It's a specialization of a specific skill set. Boxing isn't going the wrong direction because they don't train to defend
    a wrestling shot. So your issue isn't that BJJ is going to wrong direction, it's people don't train in a well round skill set but train for specific competitions. That's going to be true for any combat sport that isn't MMA or MMA-like.
    This is a very poor comparison. Boxing has rarely conducted itself more that a sport for decades now. Like I said, I'm more in the mindset of Team Python.

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