The path that BJJ has taken...

[blackmonk]

Re: turtle position...

It is advantageous in sambo, and to a certain extent in judo, to prefer the turtle position over fighting off your back... So you would want to turtle before you allowed yourself to be flattened out.

That makes it a strategy in those sports. In sport sambo, in particular, landing in turtle means no points, so people will do crazy mid-air flips to land in turtle, rather than on their back or side. All features of playing to a ruleset.

[BKR]

Re: turtle position...

It is advantageous in sambo, and to a certain extent in judo, to prefer the turtle position over fighting off your back... So you would want to turtle before you allowed yourself to be flattened out.

That makes it a strategy in those sports. In sport sambo, in particular, landing in turtle means no points, so people will do crazy mid-air flips to land in turtle, rather than on their back or side. All features of playing to a ruleset.

OK, that makes a little more sense.

Landing in a non scoring position in Judo can involve turtle, flat out, or on the thighs or but (after turn/spinouts to escape a throw). It's possible to turn to "guard" pretty quickly to avoid giving your opponent the chance to work a turnover or armbar (no chokes in normral Sambo, no leg subs in Judi, I know).

I'd call turtling a tactic, especially in Judo, essentially a stalling tactic in ne waza (when intelligently applied, not just as default).

As for prefering to turtle in Judo, well, no. It depends on the player and the situation, really. However, many many judoka default to it unfortunately.

Yes, it's semantics but true in this case, LOL.

[Lindz]

What's so sport jits only about the berimbolo? Maybe I don't trane enough UFC but it doesn't seem to leave you too vulnerable to getting punched in the face

[DKJr]

The path it's taken is fucking stupid. That doesn't mean you shouldn't compete or you don't have to play an unrealistic style just because Shoyoroll Jim does.

You should train with a certain mindset and with a focus on certain techniques. Competition breeds innovation toward the ruleset, so focus on the rule set you agree with and train as such. For example, you'll never see me play spider guard because it's goddman ridiculous.

(yeah I'm back).

[Hedgehogey]

Are we having another one of those threads? The one where we complain about how X rule/comp strategy turns us into effette and insular ivory tower nebbishes? The one where we all spew our collective hate-cum over whatever new guard technique is popular this year?

Christ, you people sometimes. Is that what you really want? To turn us into a slightly tougher Bujinkan? Because that's what spending a lot of time on 'self defense' turns you into. And not doing certain techniques because you've judged them too fiddly excludes a whole hell of a lot of BJJ.

Don't you remember the video of me actually having to defend myself that's in circulation? I didn't use Gracie Special Rape Defense Combat Gripple in that. I used basic sport BJJ: takedown (2 points), mount (4 points). Any white belt who's not a complete scrub could have done the same thing.

Come on people, don't succumb to TMA reasoning. You're better than that.

[jnp]

Come on people, don't succumb to TMA reasoning. You're better than that.

Unfortunately Hedge, you are not the sum total of the BJJ world. I doubt you will ever lose sight of the self defense aspect of BJJ due to your instructor's experience (I'm assuming you still count Relson as your instructor) and your propensity to not shy away from conflict. Others are not so lucky.

For example, I've had one blue belt tell me he was planning on utilizing upside down guard in a fight. Also, there were no self defense classes where I train for a long time. You could definitely see that the first time some of the students started getting hit while in the guard.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think BJJ has slid very far down the unrealistic rabbit hole yet. As long as the sport rule set doesn't get absurdedly restrictive, it will always have valid self defense applications. Just like Judo does.

[DKJr]

All I'm saying is you should spar with the mindset of controlling posture/distance while being mindful that practicing the flying bow and arrow choke is probably stupid.

In fact I said you should KEEP competing just don't spend your focus on sitting on your ass and inverting.


My recent sneering of the IBJJF comes from my experience with a few blues at my gym that don't know any self defense moves but can do the berimbolo unless you try to foot lock them since "god forbid" you do something against the IBJJF ruleset.

[Hedgehogey]

There are deeper issues with this though.

1: By even having this discussion, we're potentially creating more of That Guy Who Throws Fake Punches During Rolling. Let's not am become Death, Annoyer Of Academies.

2: 'Keeping it in mind' during rolling means there's less room in your mind for other things. BJJ demands your full attention. Your mind is not fully on the task if it's going through imaginary scenarios, even extremely simple ones. That's essentially what you're asking people to do and it disrupts the Zenlike focus that BJJ produces.

You wanna practice guard against strikes? That's fine and applicable. But you should be doing it with someone actually trying to hit you, not getting your wires crossed during regular rolling.

3: If you're a white belt or baby blue and most of your game consists of upside down guard and 50/50, there's indeed something wrong. By the time you get to blue, you should already have a mastery of the basic techniques that will win you 90% of all street fights: double leg, bodylock and kosotogake, maintaining mount, RNC, guillotine and bridging. These things by themselves are complete overkill for most streetfights if you have any common sense. There's no need to do Royce's Patent Fakeout Neckslap. If you really feel insecure about it, have a partner put on some boxing gloves and try to wail on you while you crash and cover.

[Hedgehogey]

BTW i'm pretty sure I could have berimbolo'd that guy in my video then finished him with a reverse omoplata if I wanted

[wetware]

Yeah... the BJJ club at my school just converted over the summer from a very solid (taught by one of the best (and only) brown belts in the area) sport program with half an hour of rolling every meeting to a "self-defense" based program. In the previous two semesters I watched people who couldn't slap-fight their way out of a paper bag turn into people who could deal with people much stronger than they were. Not saying they could curb stomp a wrecking crew or anything like that, but after only a couple semesters of hard training they could handle themselves. This semester on the other hand, we got a GJJ Purple Belt so focused on "self-defense" that we weren't rolling any more in class... I and a few other guys who had been part of sport programs would stick around afterwards to roll some while the newbs all took off. What did we focus on in class? Gimmicky standing one arm kimuras with no wrist control. As a result, the guys who were serious about effective training jumped ship as budgets allowed, mostly to another really good but for-profit school in the area.

No. I'm not bitter. Not at all.