Finding an Association

**ATKDA** · Posted On: 2/28/2013 4:00pm

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

Forgive my curiosity, but just how often (how easily) is the term "grandmaster" handed out in TKD?

As with many martial arts there are those that get the rank easily and handed out easily, however with our group you have to be a certain age of maturity and also a minimum of 40 years as an instructor, and of course actualy graded to attain Master Rank Minimum 6th degree, then a six year gap to 7th then 7 year gap to 8th and so on to 10th degree.

**Vieux Normand** · Posted On: 2/28/2013 6:49pm

Originally Posted by ATKDA

As with many martial arts there are those that get the rank easily and handed out easily, however with our group you have to be a certain age of maturity and also a minimum of 40 years as an instructor, and of course actualy graded to attain Master Rank Minimum 6th degree, then a six year gap to 7th then 7 year gap to 8th and so on to 10th degree.

What, precisely, is the psychology of an individual who would self-refer--or allow others to refer him or her--by such a puffed-up title as "grandmaster"?

There are obvious cases, such as Uganda's Idi Amin Dada, who required his cronies and toadies to refer to him the way he referred to himself: "Field-Marshall, Doctor, President-For-Life" among a great many other titles. North Korea's leaders have been similar in this respect.

What's in it for a dobok-jockey, though? Enough starry-eyed acolytes translating into dollars/poontang/freebies? It's a serious question: why would anyone go around with "grandmaster" for a title? One assumes that those who have truly earned it are of such character that they wouldn't want it.

**Gluckmann** · Posted On: 3/01/2013 12:10am

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

One assumes that those who have truly earned it are of such character that they wouldn't want it.

This blew my mind slightly.

**ATKDA** · Posted On: 3/01/2013 7:59am

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

What, precisely, is the psychology of an individual who would self-refer--or allow others to refer him or her--by such a puffed-up title as "grandmaster"?

There are obvious cases, such as Uganda's Idi Amin Dada, who required his cronies and toadies to refer to him the way he referred to himself: "Field-Marshall, Doctor, President-For-Life" among a great many other titles. North Korea's leaders have been similar in this respect.

What's in it for a dobok-jockey, though? Enough starry-eyed acolytes translating into dollars/poontang/freebies? It's a serious question: why would anyone go around with "grandmaster" for a title? One assumes that those who have truly earned it are of such character that they wouldn't want it.

Your exactly right, as i never will want to be called as such even if in many moons to pass i earn the rank, it is a title awarded to the person by those of seniority and voted for by those he or she has benefitted, it is not a given title just because of years and Degree rank it is one earnt.
I believe that no one should expect to be called master or whatever, but if the student respects you as a real true instructor then it is up to them, i always say just sir in class will do.
I dont believe that you can command to be called any rank as master or Grand master as no one will ever be a master of everything.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 3/01/2013 8:09am

Originally Posted by ATKDA

Kuk Sa Nim ( Grand Master (National Martial Arts Teacher) ) considering in most languages there is meaning, i must point out again a comment you make just to be seen clever

Guksanim, as you pointed out, does not mean grandmaster. Guksa means the national teacher. It is a title from the Yi Dynasty, applied to various masters of many different crafts, philosophies, and rituals, not just martial art. It was a title given by the royal court for recognition of a particular master in service to the court. It was awarded for various reasons, and did not denote rank or title over other martial artist. It would be akin to becoming the poet emeritus of the Obama Administration. It was not a permanent title. One could be replaced, retired, or fall out of favor of the royal court. It was an appointed title. It does not mean "grandmaster". There is no term for grandmaster in the Korean language.

So, please, tell us at what rank in Taekwondo one becomes a guksa? Tell us what test is required to become a guksa? Tell us how many of these many "grandmasters" in your International Taekwondo Council are recognized as guksa by Pak Geunhye's administration?

Do you speak Korean?

I do.

Do you read Korean?

I do.

Do you want to keep playing this game?

**ATKDA** · Posted On: 3/02/2013 7:08am

Originally Posted by DerAuslander

Guksanim, as you pointed out, does not mean grandmaster. Guksa means the national teacher. It is a title from the Yi Dynasty, applied to various masters of many different crafts, philosophies, and rituals, not just martial art. It was a title given by the royal court for recognition of a particular master in service to the court. It was awarded for various reasons, and did not denote rank or title over other martial artist. It would be akin to becoming the poet emeritus of the Obama Administration. It was not a permanent title. One could be replaced, retired, or fall out of favor of the royal court. It was an appointed title. It does not mean "grandmaster". There is no term for grandmaster in the Korean language.

So, please, tell us at what rank in Taekwondo one becomes a guksa? Tell us what test is required to become a guksa? Tell us how many of these many "grandmasters" in your International Taekwondo Council are recognized as guksa by Pak Geunhye's administration?

Do you speak Korean?

I do.

Do you read Korean?

I do.

Do you want to keep playing this game?

The point I make in translation there is some times no words for another, however the rank of respect is given in every art and so therefore as you well point out the rank is not a given pernament title, but one given out of respect for one that has earns it, the argument you carry on is not a worthy one, as Tkd uses a vocabulary that is universal so students can train anywhere in the world, so again knowing the language fully is not a necessity, I am very impressed by your knowledge of the language, but again the argument is caused when understanding is not used with open eyes, Grand Master is out of respect and is a Official title universally used in recognition within ITF Taekwondo.
Even one of the establishes of the art General Choi Hong Hi was voted to be renamed as Founder so his highest ranking world travelling instructors could for their services and dedication to peaceful spreading of the art be called Grand Masters of 9th degree and even 10th if so voted after diligent service.
So yes if you want to focus on the art and such then please feel free to argue with the founders of the art.
Please feel free to show your focus on language and not the DO of the martial.
All arts have masters and grand masters, some focus on this however I focus on teaching and improving the individuals, not trivial preconceptions.

**Vieux Normand** · Posted On: 3/02/2013 8:20pm

Originally Posted by ATKDA

The point I make in translation there is some times no words for another, however the rank of respect is given in every art and so therefore as you well point out the rank is not a given pernament title, but one given out of respect for one that has earns it, the argument you carry on is not a worthy one, as Tkd uses a vocabulary that is universal so students can train anywhere in the world, so again knowing the language fully is not a necessity, I am very impressed by your knowledge of the language, but again the argument is caused when understanding is not used with open eyes, Grand Master is out of respect and is a Official title universally used in recognition within ITF Taekwondo.

Since you've subjected me to a sentence of this length, please tell me how many people I have murdered.

So yes if you want to focus on the art and such then please feel free to argue with the founders of the art.

Sorry, can't. Funakoshi is no longer with us.

Please feel free to show your focus on language and not the DO of the martial.

Kindly keep your false dichotomies to yourself. Words are deeds. Otherwise, how could they be perceived? Since they are deeds, DO applies to words (spoken or written) as much as it does to other deeds.

If anyone self-refers as a grandmaster--or allows himself to be referred thus--what we have is a puffed-up egotist. How this is worthy of the least respect is a mystery perhaps only known to starry-eyed True Believers.

Not that there is anything wrong with True Believers. Much of the economy relies on their unquestioning faith. Just ask P.T. Barnum.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 3/04/2013 9:22am

Originally Posted by ATKDA

The point I make in translation there is some times no words for another,

The point you make is that you were wrong. Guksa does not mean grandmaster, has never meant grandmaster, and anyone claiming to be a guksa is a lying piece of **** if they are not recognized by Park Geunhye's administration.

Because newsflash, there are no British guksa.

Originally Posted by ATKDA

Even one of the establishes of the art General Choi Hong Hi was voted to be renamed as Founder so his highest ranking world travelling instructors could for their services and dedication to peaceful spreading of the art be called Grand Masters of 9th degree and even 10th if so voted after diligent service.

And so what is the Korean word for grandmaster?

**ATKDA** · Posted On: 3/04/2013 2:08pm

Originally Posted by DerAuslander

The point you make is that you were wrong. Guksa does not mean grandmaster, has never meant grandmaster, and anyone claiming to be a guksa is a lying piece of **** if they are not recognized by Park Geunhye's administration.

Because newsflash, there are no British guksa.

And so what is the Korean word for grandmaster?

Its a shame you miss the overall point, there is no direct translation for many words and also it just a respect thing as many grand masters or such equal term are not recognised by many.

lets see

WTF

kwan jang nim : grandmaster or another translation the founder or owner of school or association.

do joo nim : founder (of the art)

http://www.martialartsresource.com/k....list.htm#Rank

ITF

Sayhun - Grand Master
Boo Sabum
Sa bum nim
Sa bum

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/04/2013 2:09pm

Originally Posted by ATKDA

The point I make in translation there is some times no words for another, however the rank of respect is given in every art and so therefore as you well point out the rank is not a given pernament title, but one given out of respect for one that has earns it, the argument you carry on is not a worthy one, as Tkd uses a vocabulary that is universal so students can train anywhere in the world, so again knowing the language fully is not a necessity, I am very impressed by your knowledge of the language, but again the argument is caused when understanding is not used with open eyes, Grand Master is out of respect and is a Official title universally used in recognition within ITF Taekwondo.
Even one of the establishes of the art General Choi Hong Hi was voted to be renamed as Founder so his highest ranking world travelling instructors could for their services and dedication to peaceful spreading of the art be called Grand Masters of 9th degree and even 10th if so voted after diligent service.
So yes if you want to focus on the art and such then please feel free to argue with the founders of the art.
Please feel free to show your focus on language and not the DO of the martial.
All arts have masters and grand masters, some focus on this however I focus on teaching and improving the individuals, not trivial preconceptions.

Please stop! My urge to argue linguistics, translations and false attribution is becoming too difficult to resist.