Explain how Judo is not a soft art?...because it is.

**hungryjoe** · Posted On: 10/29/2012 11:29pm

BlazeLeeDragon

Join Date 10/27/2012 11:34am Current Activity Viewing User Profile Last Activity 10/29/2012 8:43pm

.....crickets........

**Lindz** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 1:25am

If judo is so soft why am i so sore? and grateful for that whole mutual welfare and benefit thing for tempering the beating that bb gave me tonight.

**Mr.Miyagi** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 4:08am

Originally Posted by Lindz

If judo is so soft why am i so sore? and grateful for that whole mutual welfare and benefit thing for tempering the beating that bb gave me tonight.

Judo is soft, but the ground--hard. HA HA HA.

Clean my cars, and I'll teach you more. Mmm. I go drink now.

**BlazeLeeDragon** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 7:18am

Originally Posted by BlazeLeeDragon

You want to get technical about it, the Chang Xiao Ban is not a two section staff either. as "two section staff" is American, not to mention the Chang Xiao Ban is also referred to as a Flail by Americans as well. My school calls nunchaku a Two section staff. the nanchaku are two sticks with a string or chain. if you look at a three section staff its about the same but longer with another section. so it makes sense. it's sound better to me then nunchucks, and I put it with the name next to the japanese name in () for this very reason not everyone calls it that. shaolin do, is not the only one that refers to them as two section staff.

I'm sorry I miss quoteD my school, the series of spins is called " Er Chie Kuen" the weapon is called "Two Section Staff (Er Jie Gun)" they call it nunchaku because that is what everyone assumes they are, and that is what they encourage us to buy because they are cheap and easy to get a hold. So the actually Chinese name is erjie gun, like in that wiki article I posted that holds no merit.

but like I said I don't want to miss quote Shaolin-Do they are getting enough bad rep without me miss quoting.

**Arskanator** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 9:05am

At first he was like

Originally Posted by BlazeLeeDragon

Now that I've said my peace on this as well I'll go back to not posting on this thread and like I said be history here. because it's an unproductive waste of my time.

But then he was like

Originally Posted by BlazeLeeDragon

I'm sorry I miss quoteD my school, the series of spins is called " Er Chie Kuen" the weapon is called "Two Section Staff (Er Jie Gun)" they call it nunchaku because that is what everyone assumes they are, and that is what they encourage us to buy because they are cheap and easy to get a hold. So the actually Chinese name is erjie gun, like in that wiki article I posted that holds no merit.

but like I said I don't want to miss quote Shaolin-Do they are getting enough bad rep without me miss quoting.

So I guess he likes wasting his time on something unproductive?

Who am I kidding. He does Shaolin-Do, of course he does.

**TEA** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 10:56am

Originally Posted by BlazeLeeDragon

If you can find it you might want to find an MMA school, do your research but many of the ones I see focus on real life combat situations.

Judo: Personally I would do jiu jitsu over Judo. Judo though it can be effective it's a soft art where as jiu jitsu in my opinion is more street worthy. Judo in many schools has become a "sport"

Originally Posted by BlazeLeeDragon

Soft means using your opponent's energy against them. It means your not muscling all the movements. . . .

The reason I said Jiu-jitsu is recommended over Judo is that most of the techniques I've seen used are bone breaking and joint dislocations. where as with judo I see alot of tumbling and falling with them to a ground grapple position. I did say in my original post that Judo is effective but i would recommend Jiu-jitsu over judo.

here, judo throws, they fall to the ground on top of the opponent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOV3qVIEFng

jiu-jitsu throws they stay standing in a lot of them http://youtu.be/TLztV4pHZKM

After perusing this train wreck of a thread, I'd like to discuss two points:

1. You recommend MMA but not Judo then use a clip of Judo and wrestling applied in MMA to illustrate why Jiu Jitsu (did you mean to write Ju Jutsu?) is better than Judo. This is a contradiction in reasoning.

2. The MMA video shows full power throws and trips against a non compliant opponent whereas as the Ju Jutsu video shows choreographed throws with a compliant partner. First, you need to consider that it is much easier to not get pulled down to the ground by a compliant partner than by a fully resisting opponent. In Judo practice, we regularly practice throws in which we do NOT go to the ground with our partner. Even in randori, it has been my experience that most Judoka try not to get dragged to the ground with their opponents. Second, in the video you posted, the goal of the person executing the throws or trips was to get their opponent to the ground and establish and dominant/controlling position either to ground and pound them or to try to submit them.

3. You differentiate between Judo as a "soft art" and Jiu Jitsu (again, I think you mean Ju Jutsu) as being more "street worthy" while not grasping the irony the term "ju" in both Judo and Ju Jutsu is the exact same word and translates into English as "soft, pliable, weak or gentle." Judo evolved from Ju Jutsu and the two terms were interchangeable with regards to Judo well into the '20s and '30s. It is more accurate to characterize Judo as a specific subset of Ju Jutsu, which is a broader characterization of Japanese grappling arts. From a semantics point of view, differentiating between the two of them is like differentiating between German Shephards and dogs - "While German Shephards are a fine breed, dogs are better for self defense in my opinion."

As Lindz queried, if Judo is so soft, how come I am so sore today?

**Lindz** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 11:39am

Last night I learnt that when you do ukemi if you slap with the palm of your hand flat on the ground judo is soft. If you slap with your hand just flopping around with the palm wherevever not so soft.

**BlazeLeeDragon** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 2:41pm

Originally Posted by TEA

After perusing this train wreck of a thread, I'd like to discuss two points:

1. You recommend MMA but not Judo then use a clip of Judo and wrestling applied in MMA to illustrate why Jiu Jitsu (did you mean to write Ju Jutsu?) is better than Judo. This is a contradiction in reasoning.

2. The MMA video shows full power throws and trips against a non compliant opponent whereas as the Ju Jutsu video shows choreographed throws with a compliant partner. First, you need to consider that it is much easier to not get pulled down to the ground by a compliant partner than by a fully resisting opponent. In Judo practice, we regularly practice throws in which we do NOT go to the ground with our partner. Even in randori, it has been my experience that most Judoka try not to get dragged to the ground with their opponents. Second, in the video you posted, the goal of the person executing the throws or trips was to get their opponent to the ground and establish and dominant/controlling position either to ground and pound them or to try to submit them.

3. You differentiate between Judo as a "soft art" and Jiu Jitsu (again, I think you mean Ju Jutsu) as being more "street worthy" while not grasping the irony the term "ju" in both Judo and Ju Jutsu is the exact same word and translates into English as "soft, pliable, weak or gentle." Judo evolved from Ju Jutsu and the two terms were interchangeable with regards to Judo well into the '20s and '30s. It is more accurate to characterize Judo as a specific subset of Ju Jutsu, which is a broader characterization of Japanese grappling arts. From a semantics point of view, differentiating between the two of them is like differentiating between German Shephards and dogs - "While German Shephards are a fine breed, dogs are better for self defense in my opinion."

As Lindz queried, if Judo is so soft, how come I am so sore today?

Hey I appreciate the post. That's the kinda of response, I was looking for when I started the new thread not to whine as "It is fake" would have you believe. I want to continue to discuss my suggestion. However I've been met with trolling and trash talking, half the comments have no information nor add to the conversation, they are quotes with insults severing no purpose but for the poster to blow steam out there ass. This thread has gotten so ludicrous, I really don't care to post here again.

However you have always been straight forward, with solid points in all your posts. You have my respect, and I'd be willing to continue the conversation with you if you are interest. I warn you now though there is going to be a lot of junk posts as you can see this thread has digressed from it's original purpose into trash talking, I was thinking of PMing you to avoid the inevitable trolls. However I'll just ignore those that do not wish to add to the conversation. Since there has been a few people on here who are informative and knowledgeable. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the trolls are as well if they'd get there head out of there ass and actually talk with me. because now I have people coming in, jumping on a comment or two that is adding NOTHING to the conversation. So I have nothing to say to them, you on the other hand...well lets begin.

All my online references are for the purpose of reading NOW. also to show that there are others using the terms the same way I am. Not that those are the only or first reference I have, as none of my human sources will want to talk to people from a forum to repeat what I've already said. I can't remember most of the book titles I've read over the years as I don't own them. My collection at home, has to do mainly with Chinese martial arts, as I don't practice Judo I don't own books on it. So to address your points:

1. As to the MMA, I've heard the term MMA used by many of the schools around here, as well as online and in articles that say MMA is basically a mix of martial arts. Any mix for the most part, each school I went to or called had something different to say about it. However most of the schools seemed to mix ground fighting with up fighting. They all seemed pretty well rounded. As to the videos, I was just looking for any clip with Judo and posted the first ones I ran across from a youtube search (obviously a mistake to do) for just a basic example. That and the Judo they use in that MMA is a part of the style and not the whole. though I see what you mean as far as contradictive. as far as what I meant with jiu-jitsu, I mean the Japanese version. I've seen it spelled Jiu-jitsu, Jujitsu, and on this forum as Jujutsu. I'm referring to the Japanese version that started before Judo. I'll get into why I recommend jujitsu over judo in answer to your point 3.

2. I've admitted I do not know judo, a few moves doesn't make me an expert and my post was based upon what little I've seen through video, and friends who practice, as well as research in libraries, and online. So I was willing to back down there, however any post to defend myself and say I'm backing down is met with more trolling so I stopped and planned to not respond to this thread. As I was told time again "lurk more, post less" well now I'm being asked questions by someone I respect so here I am again... I was not aware you don't end up on the ground in most Judo throws or matches. All the judo I've seen, is aimed at getting the opponent on the ground to pin them or make them submit.

3. Judo is a soft art... That was bad posting and not rereading my posts, I start typing and hit submit. It's a forum I didn't think I was going to be jumped, for every word or gap in speech. found out the hard way I was wrong ;) I didn't mean jujitsu is not a soft art because to my understanding it is as well as judo. The reason I think Jujitsu is more street worthy with what little I know about it, is because: Judo as far as I know is not about striking at all, but about dropping your opponent and pining them, if I'm wrong I was more than willing to hear so from a Judoka (I think they are called). My friends that did Jujitsu use to brag about how their stuff is for killing, it's one of the arts of the samurai from what I've seen and everything I've seen on it has punching, kicking, limb breaking and disarming moves. I didn't see anything to suggest you pin or submit an opponent in jujitsu, but rather destroy them. THATS, why I thought it would be more street worthy. Also the only Jujitsu throws I've been shown are ones where you stand and flip them, mostly isolating there arm, neck or leg for a break.

I'm also a big believer that you fight how you train. If you train for tournaments your instincts will be for tournament rules. I've heard martial arts referred to as a sport, combat sport, self-defense and combat. Whenever I hear judo mentioned it's, that's it's a sport. I'm sure some will say this is a flawed theory and I know there are exceptions. However "the greek" was asking to get back into martial arts and talked about his lack of confidence from the ass beating that dick gave him. he also mentioned that a man approached him and his wife with a knife if I remember correctly.

I don't believe ground work would be best for him, (I was assuming Judo was mainly ground work, I am wrong here) I don't think rushing someone with a knife is a good idea nor is telling someone to do ground work who has confrontation issues. I use to wrestle, when you wrestle and grapple or even now with my pakua and tai chi you commit and have to be confident and react. Hesitation in grappling is likely to get you killed. I say this because when grappling you hesitate and you are done. so I didn't think judo was the best bet, I didn't say it was bad or not effective, just that I thought Jujitsu would be better. Jujitsu being similar from an outsiders perspective. I've also seen jujitsu guys disarm guys with weapons knifes and swords. I mentioned in this long ass post how the samurai would do jujitsu, I've seen them, unarmed, disarm a guy with a sword in documentaries. but no one wants to hear my opinion now, they want to jump down my throat on every post...
as to the hard and soft styles. in my books, magazines, documentaries, fellow martial artist and instructors over the years, as well as online. hard is direct force such as a punch or a kick ie striking. soft is indirect force such as uprooting, throws and grappling etc.

I'm not calling judo pansy, infact far from it. I'm saying the throws use leverage and indirect force to throw and flip your enemy. I know full well judoka throw each other around, slam each other hard and put each other in moves that make grown men cry. but that doesn't constitute it as a "hard style" by all the definitions I've seen. When asked for resources from those calling it a hard style, I'm met with more trolling. NO one has told me where it says throwing is hard style, nor what definition and resources state that it is. I even had one guy tell me something along the lines of (not a direct quote mind you) the ground being hard so that makes it a hard style? really? that shows ignorance, at least in regards to the classifications of hard and soft styles. Soft doesn't mean like soft to the touch it, it means the amount of force used. To help those understand, that don't know the terms or are not familiar with hard and soft style classifications I even said Hard=direct and soft=indirect...even my older brother who has done BJJ for 2 years calls his art and judo "soft styles" and we are talking about a guy who is 6' who is a firefighter, body builder, wrestler, BJJ practioner, boxer, and former football center. Though he did say the way he practices it, he'd call it "hard style" because they spend more time beating each other up then using techniques, still it's suppose to be a soft style.

Now I have guys on here with no resources (or at least not nameing them) and nothing to tell me if they know what they are talking about, which is contradicting what I know from my resources. So I'm supposed to take their word for it? why? because they said so?
do you see where I'm coming from?

oh and the last thing...if judo is so soft why does my body hurt. That's easy Judo is BRUTAL, as is most forms of grappling. It takes a great amount of endurance, and quick reflexes to turn your opponents movements against them. SPEAKING as an outsider to the style. Everything I know about grappling and throws, says it's about leverage and redirection (which is what is meant by soft style), plus all the sources I can find or have seen or know say it's a soft art. Online resource by the way are fine resources since most of what you'll find in books and from teachers will also be online. They are all forms of someone expressing their thoughts and experience. The trick is to read enough of them to weed out what is true from what is questionable. I still think that comment about how online resources are not viable, when the post was ONLINE on a forum is funny. I mean that kinda sounds like he's saying dont' listen to anyone on the forum. Since it's online and not viable after all...

So, if judo is not a soft style, and you do not redirect leverage, I pose this same question to you TEA, what is the definition of soft and hard style and where did you get this definition. This is not a challenge I'm genuinely asking. If you use different terms I'm curious where you got them. I have the feeling the ones telling me it's not a soft style have not used the term or understand what it means. which is fine, if you focus on one style there is no reason to know what people classify it as.

So in closing, I am more than willing to continue this conversation with you, as well as anyone who actually has some knowledge and experience (with references if asked, online or otherwise). For those that wish to continue to attempt to bait me, troll and trash talk you will be ignored...

**ChenPengFi** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 3:02pm

**** you you lying sack of ****.
You're the whiner and people gave you all the information from the get go.
Heck, i implied all of the above, and even spelled some of it out for you earlier.
Problem is, you're too butt-hurt to even read clearly, or perhaps just too stupid.
**** off with your wall of text, bullshit, crybaby act.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 10/30/2012 3:05pm

Originally Posted by BlazeLeeDragon

[Judo as far as I know is not about striking at all, but about dropping your opponent and pining them, if I'm wrong I was more than willing to hear so from a Judoka (I think they are called). My friends that did Jujitsu use to brag about how their stuff is for killing, it's one of the arts of the samurai from what I've seen and everything I've seen on it has punching, kicking, limb breaking and disarming moves. I didn't see anything to suggest you pin or submit an opponent in jujitsu, but rather destroy them.

some thoughts on this:
-armored fighting does indeed use pinning techniques, both in Japan and in the West. The reason being that you won't be hurting an armored man with strikes, even weapon strikes to the armor. But you can if you pin him down and use a dagger into an armor gap (or one of your squires does the stab.

-responding with overwhelmingly lethal force does NOT make something better for the street. There are all levels of force used in the street, from light hands and harsh language to using wepons on another person. If lethal force is your only option, you're very limited.

-if you are gonna respond with lethal force, you should be using a weapon, not trying some stuff you saw in a spy movie.

I'm also a big believer that you fight how you train. If you train for tournaments your instincts will be for tournament rules.

The flip side again is that you shouldn't just have high consequence tactics for your self defense responses.

I don't believe ground work would be best for him, (I was assuming Judo was mainly ground work, I am wrong here) I don't think rushing someone with a knife is a good idea nor is telling someone to do ground work who has confrontation issues.

-grappling and other close quarters contact may actually prepare him for violence more than choreographed mock-violence

-rushing someone with a knife is pretty much the ONLY way to beat someone attacking you with a knife

-grappling and groundwork may even be therapeutic to such a person, to learn that vigorous interpersonal contact is not always of a criminally violent nature.

I use to wrestle, when you wrestle and grapple or even now with my pakua and tai chi you commit and have to be confident and react. Hesitation in grappling is likely to get you killed. I say this because when grappling you hesitate and you are done.

Hesitate during ANY response during a knife attack and you're done.

so I didn't think judo was the best bet, I didn't say it was bad or not effective, just that I thought Jujitsu would be better. Jujitsu being similar from an outsiders perspective. I've also seen jujitsu guys disarm guys with weapons knifes and swords.

Those are usually choreographed demos- even masters of such methods often fail under pressure. Look up Tomiki Aikido Tanto Randori- those guys know the same JJJ knife defenses, but look what happens under pressure (and that's a semi-scripted knife attack still, because the attack has to come a certain way).

[quote]I mentioned in this long ass post how the samurai would do jujitsu, I've seen them, unarmed, disarm a guy with a sword in documentaries. but no one wants to hear my opinion now, they want to jump down my throat on every post...[/COLOR]
Those documentaries are showing choreographed demos. I mean, did they point their cameras at actual samurai engaging in a duel? That's like saying dinosaurs didn't have feathers because they didn't in a documentary called Jurassic Park.