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  1. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 1:23am

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    semi auto - 7.62mm AR with freefloat barrel

    bolt action - savage

    Thats probably best bang for buck on the cheap.
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  2. Roaming East is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2014 10:14pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ive owned 3 .308 semi autos. a Springer M1a, a PTR91 and an inch pattern FAL.

    Out of the 3 id recommend the FAL for the following reasons:

    -Its is FAR AND AWAY more reliable than the other 2. For all the acclaim the M14 gets, its civilian model is more thoroughbred than warhorse. The FAL is inexpensive to BUY, its parts are ridiculously plentiful, its gas system is capable of firing an incredibly diverse range of ammunition, its easy to clean and its fairly light compared to the other 3 without any loss of usable accuracy. Is it going to tack drive like a national match M1A? no, but then again an M1a takes a ridiculous amount of upkeep to MAINTAIN its accuracy anyway. not the kind of platform id want in a SHTF scenario.
    I'd say the only thing i didnt particularly care for in the FAL is that its trigger is...not match.

    The PTR91/G3. It recoils hard, its sights take practice to use well and are mostly useless in moving target/low light shooting. Its plenty reliable but this comes at the price of it being heavy and it DESTROYS brass. Im talking 30 degree bends in the casings WHEN you can find them because it also hurls the brass 20 yards away with great vigor. Its accessories tend to be in the 'nosebleed' category as far as prices go, are hard to come by without the internet and are limited in any event. its a fun range gun but not something id want as my 'one and only' when civilization begins to crumble.

    M1A. The only reasons to pick this over a FAL is because you want the heritage it represents or you want a competition piece. It's wonderfully accurate when well maintained but takes vigilance to keep it like that. The rifle itself is pricy, its accessories are pricey and the ammo you'll have to shoot to justify its existence over its Belgian brother is expensive. Its a range horse for sure. But if you can put up with hemorrhaging cash and like to do a lot of small parts maintenance its is definitely a rifle that will take you places.

    Basically, if we were comparing these rifles to vehicles:
    FAL= Toyota Tacoma with the offroad package
    PTR91=Dodge SRT10
    M1A= Lincoln Blackwood.


    Id stay away from the AR-10 packages. Those are PURELY sport/competition rifles. Ive seen a bunch go through my areas defensive rifle courses and they ALWAYS seem to break. its not for SHTF at all.
  3. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2014 11:43pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming East View Post
    an M1a takes a ridiculous amount of upkeep to MAINTAIN its accuracy..........

    It's wonderfully accurate when well maintained but takes vigilance to keep it like that........

    like to do a lot of small parts maintenance its is definitely a rifle that will take you places..........

    Id stay away from the AR-10 packages. Those are PURELY sport/competition rifles. Ive seen a bunch go through my areas defensive rifle courses and they ALWAYS seem to break. its not for SHTF at all.

    So, a few questions here.

    What type of ridiculous upkeep would you say is required to maintain the accuracy of an M1A? I'm not familiar with too many accuracy variables that depend heavily on extraordinary maintenance. The big players for rifle accuracy are barrel quality, chamber precision, proper crown, bolt fit, bedding, ammo, etc. What special vigilance is required to maintain M1A accuracy?

    If you're referring to reliability, that's a completely separate discussion from accuracy. If we're discussing reliability, I'd be interested to hear about the small parts maintenance requirements with the M1A, how those requirements differ from other semiautomatic rifles, and which design elements of the M1A make it more prone to failure.

    Regarding the AR-10....it's an AR. Changing the caliber has very little impact on the reliability of the platform. Do you have the same opinions of the AR-15 that you have about the AR-10? If not, why would you consider the AR-15 suitable for SHTF but not the AR-10?
  4. Roaming East is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2014 1:24am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, since the original M1A's were made, Springfield has changed hands twice with QC going down each time. Nowadays, M1A's arent even made with USGI parts so upon receiving it you might as well replace the barrel, the oprod the firing pin hell even the receiver. Bolts and bolt stops as well.

    Thats just the operational pieces. The damn things start to shake loose after about 200 rounds and need to be dissassembled and then reassembled almost at armory level to ensure you dont have parts shake loose like barrels coming out (seen that one twice)

    wont go into zero holding issues.

    No, i love AR's. i own a colt, a noveske and kit bash made up of Spikes and BCM, ive never personally toyed with an AR-10. but at the defensive rifle courses run down at PSA or up in falls church, AR10's die like they have AIDS. maybe its user issues with people clowning around trying to 'spec' their arms out. but they suffer the '1911' syndrome where people make the tolerances too tight to function as a FIGHTING arm.
  5. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/02/2014 2:19am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming East View Post
    Well, since the original M1A's were made, Springfield has changed hands twice with QC going down each time. Nowadays, M1A's arent even made with USGI parts so upon receiving it you might as well replace the barrel, the oprod the firing pin hell even the receiver. Bolts and bolt stops as well.

    Thats just the operational pieces. The damn things start to shake loose after about 200 rounds and need to be dissassembled and then reassembled almost at armory level to ensure you dont have parts shake loose like barrels coming out (seen that one twice)

    wont go into zero holding issues.

    No, i love AR's. i own a colt, a noveske and kit bash made up of Spikes and BCM, ive never personally toyed with an AR-10. but at the defensive rifle courses run down at PSA or up in falls church, AR10's die like they have AIDS. maybe its user issues with people clowning around trying to 'spec' their arms out. but they suffer the '1911' syndrome where people make the tolerances too tight to function as a FIGHTING arm.

    You didn't answer my questions.

    You claimed the M1A requires vigilant maintenance to keep it accurate. You implied that they shoot well but they require vigorous maintenance to keep it that way. What maintenance would that be? Swapping your barrel ain't it. A barrel either shoots or doesn't shoot.

    Which specific parts of the rifle do you think suffer due to not being USGI? What has changed in the specs of those parts that you find undesirable? How are you arriving at the conclusions you're drawing about the quality control process at Springfield Armory?

    If you've got something to say, I'm listening but it's going to take more than regurgitated tribal knowledge or anecdotal evidence from experiences with a few rifles to convince me I need to rebuild brand new SA M1As. If there is a significant need to rebuild new M1As, I would like to cash in on the opportunity. Unfortunately it appears that the rebuild brand new rifle market is pretty small in my locale at the moment.

    Please do go into zero holding issues.

    On the AR-10s. You've got some Bubbas at the range. Rifle maintenance unknown. Modifications unknown. Failure rate in comparison to the AR-15 unknown. Yet you're super convinced that the AR-10 isn't ready for prime time. Okay, then.
  6. Roaming East is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2014 7:16pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Springfield ran out of USGI parts ages ago. That was already stated, but for a more detailed list on the rifle lets start with

    -The reciever. Orginal M14 recievers were drop hammer forged, current M1A's are cast. Not that that alone is terrible, Fulton Armory builds use cast recievers as well, but they DONT use Springfield supplied ones and tend not to want to build on them. The best cast receivers are from Armscorp i believe and purist buy LRB Forged ones. Either way springfield recievers are lower quality

    -Springfield uses .308 chambered barrels that arent chrome lined. The barrels are i BELIEVE Wilson, but still. Non chrome lining? You say 'swapping the barrel' aint maintenance but when you have to continuously check to make sure your barrel isnt about to fall out, headspace or blow up on you. Thats maintenance. You do that with an M1A. Whens the last time you were at the range with any other firearm and the first thing you did was go 'better make sure the barrel is locked tight'

    -Oprod. Its garbage. Its the primary reason the M1A stock is considered a range queen and not a serious use rifle IN MY BOOK. Heavy use and by heavy i mean, a few hundred rounds in the course of an hour stresses the oprod like nobodies business. it will be the first thing to break and will do so before you hit 1500 rounds. It should be the first thing replaced with USGI parts.

    -extractor. Ditto to the above. This thing will break within 200 round if fired like a battle rifle. dont do shooting drills with the stock extractor in

    -Scope mounts. The entire assembly method is prone to losing zero. This is just a mechanical issue with the design of the rifle itself. it was never designed to be a precision instrument.

    -Bolt. Not a bad design but again, not design for precision work and the cheap ones arent made to spec. another 'must replace item'.


    So thats the M1a. Basically, youre dropping 1500 dollars USED for a weapon that, to make it competitive as a battle rifle with its cheaper contemporaries, will require almost another 2 grand in parts replacements. This will turn a stock M1A into a fairly good shooting rifle. It wont be precision rifle (or rather an ideal one) merely because of its inherent design limitations.

    As far as the AR-10. Take it for what it is. An anecdotal story from MY experience. I've seen plenty of AR-10 shooters tack drive at the range, but not a single one go through a whole defensive rifle course. Thats 100% FAIL RATE at defensive rifle shooting. I've seen FAL variants do them all day and i know by experience that the PTR class will eat serious shooting class with nary a problem. So why is that every time someone has an AR-10 its the only one on the line taking everyones time because its inop for whatever reason. leave your paper puncher at home and bring a fighting gun if your going to take a fighting gun course.


    But dont take my word for it. Just mosey over to the lightfighter forums and ask the locals there whats up. Those guys will be able to tell you the actual part number and round count to failure rate they will have.


    If the guy is deadset on owning a made in america apple pie eating dallas cowboys fan Springfield M1A, more power to him. He should just be prepared for an expensive rifle thats less 'battle rifle ready' than its main competitors. But lets be serious. The only reason people pick the M1A over the FAL or the PTR is because of sentimental value and nostalgia. You cant show me a single thing that a stock M1a or hell the M14 it was derived from does better than the FN FAL or the HK G3.

    So yeah. For straight out of the box performance, the FAL shits all over the M1A. there, i said it.
  7. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/02/2014 10:46pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hope you don't have to shoot most of those M1A killers southpaw.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  8. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 10:32am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some more thoughts, in no particular order:

    You're still intermingling the accuracy discussion with reliability concerns, some of which have no bearing on accuracy.

    All guns break. Springfield Armory is by far the largest manufacturer orf M1As, so it is logical that you will hear about more problems from that manufacturer than from others.

    The FAL is a fine rifle as well, in my book.

    What is your idea of a battle rifle? The M14 max rate of fire is 40-60RPM on semi-auto. Maximum sustained rate of fire is 15 RPM. It is not a belt fed machinegun and shouldn't be expected to perform like one.

    These are limitations inherent in the original USGI M14 design. How many people push their M1As past the stated limitations, then bitch about Springfield Armory rifles sucking ass when they break?

    On to the subject of Fulton Armory not wanting to use Springfield Armory receivers. I'm going to challenge you to come up with another possible reason Fulton Armory may not want to build on Springfield Armory receivers. Come on, buddy. You can figure it out. I know you've got it in you.

    Where is your objective evidence that SA receivers are lower quality than it's competitors? Or are you just buying in to internet wisdom and marketing?

    As for chrome lining - again, I'm not sure if you're discussing accuracy or reliability here, but the barrels chosen most often by high end custom gun builders to build tack drivers also are usually not chrome lined (Krieger, Brux, Lilja, etc.)

    There's too much standing around the burn barrel type talk that gets circulated around the internet and eventually accepted as fact with very little objective research to back it up. This is a huge problem with firearm discussions in general because it's typically expensive to do proper scientific studies to answer various firearm related questions and it's unusual for people to have the financial incentive to do so.

    A lot of these discussions - M14 vs FAL, chrome lined vs unlined, forged vs cast, are silly and subjective like the AR vs AK debate. Subjective arguments shouldn't be the basis you use to confidently announce to people that Rifle X, Y or Z sucks. That's why I took exception to your first post, not because I give a **** about the M1A vs FAL argument. You don't have the evidence to back up your opinions. This applies to your AR-10 statements as well.

    Despite the lack of evidence, people who are less knowledgeable may be swayed by the passion with which you argue your opinions and that's why I'm pointing out some counter arguments.
    Last edited by Devil; 3/03/2014 11:12am at .
  9. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2014 8:36pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    autoloading 308 platforms aren't as developed as 5.56 AR platforms. It will be hard to find an accurate/reliable package like an AR. Most FALs aren't gonna be tack drivers that the AR is, but it will be reliable.

    It is true that the supply of GI made M14 parts are drying up. Many parts you see on a modern M1A clone is going to be from overseas and domestic manufacturers. Not that that, in itself is bad. I don't know too much about M14s so I am not going to comment on it.

    If you want something as well refined as a brand name 556 AR, with a reliability/accuracy compbo like such, I think you'd be best going to a SCAR. My west coast partner tests our 30 cal brakes on a Sig 716. We run em' hard, and it is accurate enough to check our muzzle device's effect on accuracy (there is none) I wish he'd move to FL soon so we can MG that sucker.

    I read so many comments about M1A being way more accurate than ARs. I laugh at it. M16 clones with free float tubes have long replaced the M14 clones on the winner's list at service rifle and high power matches.
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  10. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2014 10:53pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwkfym View Post
    autoloading 308 platforms aren't as developed as 5.56 AR platforms. It will be hard to find an accurate/reliable package like an AR. Most FALs aren't gonna be tack drivers that the AR is, but it will be reliable.

    It is true that the supply of GI made M14 parts are drying up. Many parts you see on a modern M1A clone is going to be from overseas and domestic manufacturers. Not that that, in itself is bad. I don't know too much about M14s so I am not going to comment on it.

    If you want something as well refined as a brand name 556 AR, with a reliability/accuracy compbo like such, I think you'd be best going to a SCAR. My west coast partner tests our 30 cal brakes on a Sig 716. We run em' hard, and it is accurate enough to check our muzzle device's effect on accuracy (there is none) I wish he'd move to FL soon so we can MG that sucker.

    I read so many comments about M1A being way more accurate than ARs. I laugh at it. M16 clones with free float tubes have long replaced the M14 clones on the winner's list at service rifle and high power matches.

    I agree on all points. Yep, the GI parts are drying up. Like you said, that's not necessarily bad. There's some high quality manufacturing to be found out there.

    The whole GI thing is kind of funny to me. My number one area of interest is custom bolt guns. So many people who are into precision tactical rifles think the holy grail is the M40. They pay thousands of dollars to have precise copies built, agonizing over military specs and trying to figure out exactly how they do every little detail in Quantico.

    I think the M40 series is cool too. But if anyone ever asks me if I can build them a precise reproduction I'm going to give them an honest answer. Absolutely! If you want to pay me a bunch of money to cut corners and build you less of a rifle than I'm capable of, I'll be glad to.
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