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  1. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2014 9:08am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    BATFE seizes customer list from 80% mfr/dealer

    I've kinda been meaning to follow this story closer, and here's my opportunity.

    Ares Armor makes AR parts - notably for this saga, a plastic 80% lower with detailed instructions and diagrams on how the customer can finish the milling.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/19...cmp=latestnews
  2. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2014 11:46am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I have read a handful of articles, now, and have a better idea of what's going on. This article at The Truth About Guns has a pretty good overview.

    BATFE is upset about specific lowers that Ares sells. The BATFE claim is that these lowers are milled then filled. Ares refuted that in their restraining order, saying that the "plug" is molded first, then the rest of the receiver is molded over the plug.

    Ares is not the manufacturer of these, but a good buddy of Ares' owner is.

    Seems legit enough, to me, based on the info that I have read. What gets me (and what has the firearms world in general) up in arms (hehe, little joke there) is the seizure of the customer list. Seems to me that BATFE is in the wrong, here, and may have violated laws and the restraining order - and now has data on law-abiding citizens that it might never have known, otherwise.
  3. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2014 11:47am

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was aware of this, but I haven't been following it closely either. I'm not going to spend much time researching it now but if I remember correctly it seems like there was some issue other than the legality of their 80% lowers. I think they were holding "build parties" with their customers or something like that, which may have raised the initial concerns. Not sure though.
  4. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2014 12:57pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I did read at least one place where they (Ares) were considering holding a build party, and that was the impetus for the raid in the first place. Seemed more conjecture than fact when I read it. But, TTAG has another article talking specifically about a shop that was recently shut down for coaching their customers through the build in the back of the shop.
  5. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2014 11:43am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe I'm just dumb on this, but what is illegal about building your gun??
  6. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2014 12:12pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Man I shouldn't be answering this - bow to Scrapper, dwkfym, Devil, or any others that come in and correct me.

    It's not about building your own gun. If you were to do so - from scratch, on your own, without purchasing the "legally a firearm" piece, you should be totally above board. That being said, it's very common for 80%-ers to still put a serial on their lower, just in case.

    There is one part of an AR that constitutes a firearm from a legal perspective. If you purchase this part, you are subject to Brady checks and registration. However, if you build this part, you are not subject to Brady checks and registration. Some clever guy or gal figured out the optimum level of manufacture of this part that would require additional fabrication, but was otherwise perfect - thus, skirting the Brady check. Thus was born the 80% lower receiver.

    The fabricator supplying the 80% lower in question, here, to Ares Armor has come up with a new method of manufacture that BATFE is arguing is against the rules/regs. The rule of thumb is "once a firearm, always a firearm." BATFE is arguing that this manufacturer is building a complete lower, then filling it in. Ares and the manufacturer are claiming that they make a plug then mold a lower over the plug. I personally think in the legal sense if they can prove that is what they are actually manufacturing, they've successfully skirted the rules/regs.

    There have been other items, in the past - most notably and recently, bump-fire stocks - which have gone through the additional courtesy of getting a letter from BATFE ruling their part legal (or, more technically, not illegal). I think the real crux of this issue is that Ares' supplier probably didn't do that courtesy, and this is a show of force by BATFE.
  7. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/22/2014 7:36pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I glossed over it (no time) but didn't see anything incorrect.

    Don't quote me on this since I'm not an attorney, but a piece of metal or poly block isn't considered a firearm, according to the most recent opinion of the ATF, if it would take someone with substantial machining experience and equipment to finish into a firearm. Currently (I may be wrong on this), if the incomplete lower cannot accept fire control parts using this method, and can't be modified to do so using the above standard, it is not a firearm.

    ATF sometimes draw fairly intelligible lines with standards like this. ATF also has to attempt to draw a clear line on something that isn't so clear. Sucks for them. The industry tries not to push it and stay a step or two behind 'that line,' which is why 80% lowers do not have the FCG cavity at all nor does it have any holes. No one likes to push it, but every once in a while someone will be brave and push it a little bit.

    You can send samples into ATF tech branch to get an opinion. But still have to be careful. If you aren't a licensed manufacturer of suppressors, I would not send in a sample of something that could be considered one.
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  8. torontosecurity is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2014 2:30am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Man I shouldn't be answering this - bow to Scrapper, dwkfym, Devil, or any others that come in and correct me.

    It's not about building your own gun. If you were to do so - from scratch, on your own, without purchasing the "legally a firearm" piece, you should be totally above board. That being said, it's very common for 80%-ers to still put a serial on their lower, just in case.

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