Interesting Gun Loophole

**Devil** · Posted On: 10/27/2012 11:35pm

So, I've got one of these:

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It's a .44 caliber black powder revolver - a replica of the 1860 Colt Army. I own this completely practical tool because I'm a whole lot like this guy:

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Let me tell you gentlemen, shooting this thing is a shitload of fun. It takes FOREVER to load....measure your powder, poor it into the cylinder, put in a patch, put in a ball, rotate the cylinder, pack it. Repeat this five more times. Then slather bore butter in all the cylinders to prevent a chain fire. Then add a cap to each nipple.

Five minutes later you're finally ready to shoot. All your hard work is rewarded with a thunderous ka-boom, a thick cloud of white smoke and a thoroughly demoralized milk jug.

I highly recommend you pick one of these up. You can snag one for a couple hundred bucks at Cabela's. It's black powder, so no FFL is required. They'll mail it right to your house and you can start making splinters. No fuss, no muss.

Which brings me to the point I wanted to discuss. I was looking around the internet and found this:

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And this:

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What you're looking at is a cylinder and ejector conversion kit from Kirst Konverter that allows you to modify this cap and ball revolver to fire cartridge ammunition (.45 Long Colt). It's kind of like when Jesus turned water into wine:

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I just said the gun is awesome as-is. Nevermind that factoid for a moment. Also, please disregard the fact that this kit is more expensive than the gun itself.

The point is that you can buy the revolver without going through an FFL and you can also buy the conversion kit without going through an FFL. So you can have a "real handgun" that was purchased legally with no background check or BATF involvement of any kind. This probably just falls into the category of things that aren't on the gun Nazis' radar because it's not commonly seen and nobody has ever screamed about it.

Now, I'm not sure why anyone would want to spend upwards of $500 to own a single action revolver that's still old school as hell just to avoid a background check. Even the most brazen criminal would have to have an impressive sense of flair to embark on an evening of carjackings with 3 pounds of cowboy revolver stuck in his wasteband.

Nevertheless, I thought the legal aspects were interesting. There was a discussion in another thread recently about making plastic guns on a $10,000 printer. For those of you rebels who were fascinated by that, this is probably a safer and more cost-effective way for you to stick it to the man. Enjoy!

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 10/28/2012 12:03am

Originally Posted by Devil

The point is that you can buy the revolver without going through an FFL and you can also buy the conversion kit without going through an FFL. So you can have a "real handgun" that was purchased legally with no background check or BATF involvement of any kind. This probably just falls into the category of things that aren't on the gun Nazis' radar because it's not commonly seen and nobody has ever screamed about it.

That's pretty effing cool!

I imagine that in addition to the added expense, you have a relatively weaker action than modern handguns in .45LC. It would probably be best to stick to old black powder loadings and tailor the juice to mimmic the preasure and burn under normal function as closely as possible. Firing modern .45LC loadings out of a revolver with no top strap on the frame sounds like a risky idea.

Another thing to watch out for is that some of these BP replicas have brass frames and thus a shorter service life. The end of which was generally a KABOOM in the old days. Caveat Emptor.

That said, I am honestly thinking of getting one because single action revolvers still kick ass! YEE HAW!!!!

**Devil** · Posted On: 10/28/2012 12:10am

Originally Posted by Mr. Machette

That's pretty effing cool!

I imagine that in addition to the added expense, you have a relatively weaker action than modern handguns in .45LC. It would probably be best to stick to old black powder loadings and tailor the juice to mimmic the preasure and burn under norml function as closely as possible.

Another thing to watch out for is that some of these BP replicas have brass frames and thus a shorter service life. The end of which was generally a KABOOM with these old school designs.

That said, I am honestly thinking of getting one because single action revolvers still kick ass! YEE HAW!!!!

You do want to watch the power of your loads, but you don't have to stick to black powder loadings. Kirst specifies a max of 1,000 fps velocity for the .45 Long Colt, which is no problem at all to find with smokeless ammo.

You can't use this conversion with brass framed models.

**TEA** · Posted On: 10/28/2012 10:25am

Can you pre-load multiple cylinders with the black powder and swap them out for a quicker re-load? Kind of like a magazine change.

**BlazeLeeDragon** · Posted On: 10/28/2012 10:36am

Originally Posted by TEA

Can you pre-load multiple cylinders with the black powder and swap them out for a quicker re-load? Kind of like a magazine change.

No, the cylinder is all connected you have to break down the whole gun if you wanted a new cylinder. it's a bitch to load because of this, you have to hold it barrel up and do each cylinder from the side with little room to work.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Pietta-1851-Navy-Colt-44-Caliber-Black-Powder-Revolver-Parts-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$%28KGrHqFHJDcFBt3TnC6ZBQeuu0wV%28!~~60_35.JPG

Granted I guess you could pop in a new cylinder
Watch this video from 1:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34sSa_K2R28

**TEA** · Posted On: 10/28/2012 1:13pm

Originally Posted by BlazeLeeDragon

No, the cylinder is all connected you have to break down the whole gun if you wanted a new cylinder. it's a bitch to load because of this, you have to hold it barrel up and do each cylinder from the side with little room to work.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Pietta-1851-Navy-Colt-44-Caliber-Black-Powder-Revolver-Parts-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$%28KGrHqFHJDcFBt3TnC6ZBQeuu0wV%28!~~60_35.JPG

Granted I guess you could pop in a new cylinder
Watch this video from 1:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34sSa_K2R28

Thanks for that clarification. I thought I remembered a scene from Jose Wales in which Jose changed cylinders on one of his revolvers, but I am probably mistaken. I'm sure if that was possible with the design, then Civil War soldiers would have carried bandoleers with spare loaded cylinders.

**BKR** · Posted On: 10/28/2012 2:40pm

Originally Posted by TEA

Can you pre-load multiple cylinders with the black powder and swap them out for a quicker re-load? Kind of like a magazine change.

that is what they did back in the day for sure. Cavalry troops also would carry multiple revolvers one on each hip and one one either side of their saddles in holsters.

So that's 24 shots without reloading.

**BKR** · Posted On: 10/28/2012 2:44pm

As far as loads go, the 45 acp with a 230 gr. FJM at 850 fps is considerd pretty potent. A similar load in 45 LC with black powder is pretty easy to do. If the conversion can handle it you can load up to as noted around 1000 fps with smokeless and maybe black as well.

In any case, who wants a .45 slug in their chest at almost any velocity?

Wait, you can shoot a .45 slug through the .44 bbl on the percussion pistol? I didn't see a new barrel in that kit?

Ben

**BlazeLeeDragon** · Posted On: 10/28/2012 3:52pm

Originally Posted by BKR

that is what they did back in the day for sure. Cavalry troops also would carry multiple revolvers one on each hip and one one either side of their saddles in holsters.

So that's 24 shots without reloading.

Are you sure we are talking about the same gun? Most black powder guns, at the very least the one in question 44 caliber black powder revolver - a replica of the 1860 Colt Army. Does not allow for a quick swap of the cylinder. If I am mistaken could you please sight your source, I'd be interested in reading it.

I think I read they did eventually make guns like this. but I don't think the one in question can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Army_Model_1860
"Loading is a somewhat lengthy process, with each of the six chambers drilled into the revolving cylinder being loaded from the front, or "muzzle" end. A measured amount of black powder is poured into a chamber..."

**goodlun** · Posted On: 10/28/2012 4:43pm

Originally Posted by BlazeLeeDragon

Are you sure we are talking about the same gun? Most black powder guns, at the very least the one in question 44 caliber black powder revolver - a replica of the 1860 Colt Army. Does not allow for a quick swap of the cylinder. If I am mistaken could you please sight your source, I'd be interested in reading it.

I think I read they did eventually make guns like this. but I don't think the one in question can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Army_Model_1860
"Loading is a somewhat lengthy process, with each of the six chambers drilled into the revolving cylinder being loaded from the front, or "muzzle" end. A measured amount of black powder is poured into a chamber..."

Multiple revolvers =/= swapping the chamber