Comparison of fencing, HEMA, and HMB, wilth comments on SCA and boffers

**captain zorikh** · Posted On: 10/08/2012 10:46pm

Middle Ages today posted this article comparing various forms of swordfighting and medieval-inspired or -descended weapons combat. I figured it would be nice to start a fresh new thread for everyone to spout the same old arguments while I train for Battle of the Nations and the 100 Minutes War.

middleagestoday.com/en/node/813

Captain Z

**Bneterasedmynam** · Posted On: 10/18/2012 7:24pm

Originally Posted by captain zorikh

Middle Ages today posted this article comparing various forms of swordfighting and medieval-inspired or -descended weapons combat. I figured it would be nice to start a fresh new thread for everyone to spout the same old arguments while I train for Battle of the Nations and the 100 Minutes War.

middleagestoday.com/en/node/813

Captain Z

Other than sport fencing I'm not sure what the difference is between them.

**wikidbounce** · Posted On: 10/18/2012 8:52pm

Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam

Other than sport fencing I'm not sure what the difference is between them.

I was a little confused til I saw the link http://middleagestoday.com/en/node/813

Looks like an interesting website, with lots of articles to look through.

**Thallian** · Posted On: 11/17/2012 6:54am

I was about to start my own thread about this but it might make more sense to just add to this one. =)

*begin rant*

Yesterday I was looking at some random youtube HEMA vids and found an absolute bitchfest of HEMA people vs BotN fighters.

Basically, the BotN guys accuse the HEMA folks of doing 'sword ballet' and the latter accuse the former of being all aggression and no technique.

Why? Logically it would make sense to meet somewhere in the middle, surely? Doesn't a good fighter need some technique and some aggression? Why is it that most historical western martial artists (using that term very loosely here) fall into either one camp or the other?

The guy who runs my re-enactment lot once boasted that he could do 100 swings in a minute with a heavy sword. Sure, that's an achievement of sorts, but I always thought just getting one good swing in on a resisting partner is much better than just endlessly batter the crap out of him with no concept of critical distance, timing, footwork or any fighting basics, really.
On the other hand you have my longsword instructor (HEMA) who also teaches Aikido. 'nuff said. =( It's very elaborate, compliant techniques with no aliveness, ever.

Perhaps the two disciplines are just too different to agree on a happy middle ground? As someone who has done both, as well as traditional fencing, I feel inclined to point out that neither is really how a martial art ought to work. You need some aggressiveness, some drive, otherwise the whole thing becomes just a performance art. But you also need some authentic and working technique, tempered by discipline, otherwise you turn the martial art into a martial sport.

*rant over*

Whey, glad I got that off my chest. =P
Discuss?

**lklawson** · Posted On: 11/19/2012 10:32am

Originally Posted by Thallian

Yesterday I was looking at some random youtube HEMA vids and found an absolute bitchfest of HEMA people vs BotN fighters.

Basically, the BotN guys accuse the HEMA folks of doing 'sword ballet' and the latter accuse the former of being all aggression and no technique.

Why?

It's human nature to try to separate into groups and then extol the virtues of your group while attacking the other.

Nations, sports teams, colleges, operating systems, whatever. It's all the same.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**captain zorikh** · Posted On: 11/19/2012 7:35pm

[QUOTE=Thallian;2739171]I was about to start my own thread about this but it might make more sense to just add to this one. =)

*begin rant*

Yesterday I was looking at some random youtube HEMA vids and found an absolute bitchfest of HEMA people vs BotN fighters.

Basically, the BotN guys accuse the HEMA folks of doing 'sword ballet' and the latter accuse the former of being all aggression and no technique.]

As a BotN guy myself, I must say I don't know anyone who calls a HEMA guy "sword ballet," but I do know it's kind of annoying to see folks claim YMAS when they won't put on the armor and try it themselves.

In answer to your rant, I agree with the logic that an effective, martial art must contain both skill and aggression, and the development of any competitive martial art, combat sport, or even contact sport, is an arms race of the strong vs. the fast vs. the skilled. To the "untrained eye" something like BotN my look like undisciplined crashing in armor (and the SCA may look like unskilled stick-swinging), and it may have even started out as such. But one day someone figured out that if you did it *this* way you wound up winning more often. Then someone who was stronger did it that way also, and won more. Then someone who was faster did the same thing and beat him, so someone had to figure out how to beat the faster guy, etc.

But rather than observe and study, some people just like to enjoy they feeling they get from saying YMAS.

**Bneterasedmynam** · Posted On: 11/20/2012 1:05pm

I can guarantee anyone that saw me do HEMA wouldn't say "sword ballet", they might say WTF??!!, but not "sword ballet". I would agree with the middle road idea on this one, all aggression gives openings, and all kata with no substance lacks athleticism and experience. Since neither side is likely to fight to the death over it I say they should just agree to disagree.