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  1. gzk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2012 6:19pm

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     Style: BJJ, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    D'Arce v arm triangle from side control

    If you had someone under your side control and have sufficient control to choose either to try to D'Arce or arm triangle them, which would you choose, and why? Is one typically more efficiently finished? Are there positional vulnerabilities present in one and not the other? In theory I would think that the D'Arce is tighter but slightly more complex to set up and leaves you without a post (other than your head) on the far side, whereas you can let an arm triangle go and you have a post right there, but I want your thoughts...
  2. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2012 10:26pm


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For bias - I love the D'arce, I am known as D'arce Vader in the gym, it's a versitile and awesome choke you can pretty much hit from everywhere and it threatens and leads you to so many other positional control places.

    Video as reference points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H0YIgfWTnc

    To decide, for me it's really a lot about which way they turn to try escape/make space.

    E.G. Turning into me, I'll d'arce. Turning away, you have the option to top arm arm triangle against them. Otherwise I'll still d'arce if they turn away =3, but I'm a d'arcing asshole.

    General side control escape mean they bridge and turn into you to get their leg across and re-capture guard really opening themselves up for the overhook --> d'arce setup then any of the finishes you want to go with for that (standard pressure, on your side "marce", and what I think is like the "marce" while you hook their leg like a perivian d'arce I guess?).

    If they turn away you can hit the back control or pivot to a north south --> d'arce setup and then to any of the finishes.

    I find the d'arce is easier to hit with less ways for them to escape it. You have a powerful control position as well "d'arce control" where you can launch a bunch of other attacks from. You can work that "vice grip" position as well if they come up to their knees to cut across their necks and put them down again to a power sidemount control.

    As their arm is under you in the d'arce it can only come out up (towards their head) if you are attacking it from side control, or be driven elbow across their body and out that other side for escape if you are d'arcing from bottom. Also watch getting swept if you overcommit your weight on top as you attack for it.

    In the d'arce: your weight traps their arm down, pressuring your weight INTO and THROUGH their body—this should stop it getting out—as you set up the arm grabbing their neck before you hit the arms being locked up.

    In the arm triangle: I find that my body weight can be less driving through them as I risk more of an overcommitment in this fashion (like getting rolled over, or not being able to drive and cut enough); as such, agile or strong cored people feel like they have a much easier time as they can move their body much better, I have less control of their spine and I can't pin them to their side in the same way and feel safe.

    I can force or bait people into turning into me for the d'arce easier than I can forcing someone to turn away.

    The setup between the both of them are very similar if you are wraping up their arms as you pivot around their body (side control --> north south --> side control type deal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ-a...eature=related like in this example til 1:00 minute, but instead of going for the 'crush' finish, I switch the arms and drive the d'arce underhook to start the change of sub), so I like to pick and choose.

    With a d'arce, though, I do need them up on a side first (you can turn them with this setup, and it's sexy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAEnWil5bW8), where as with the arm triangle I can set it up from them mostly being flat if I can get that arm up and isolated to start the submission setup.

    With a d'arce I can cut the angles better and apply more pressure to the submission than I feel like I can compared to the arm triangle. You can move to the neck crank variation, you can mount them, you can fall to your side, you can fall to the side and hook a leg (from 0:53 you can see how he turns back into them and hooks over their back), you can finish it inside half guard etc etc.

    If I get those arms locked up across the neck, I'm 95% sure I'm going to finish the choke, I don't feel the same about the arm triangle.

    Regarding the post, you have the top arm until you lock your arms together to finish it. The bottom arm should drive in hard with your shoulder trying to punch through their arm pit, and to get that distance you need to turn your hips and body away from them to sink this awesomely then cup the back of their head (0:50 seconds into the reference video). Once your arm is through turning back means your weight is through them again, and locking your arms (0:53 seconds into the reference vid you can see the palm of the top arm can still be used to post before you subdue them) and going to your side means they can't then sweep you over where you are now "lacking" that post.

    Anyway, these are just my thoughts all of this is obviously subjective, but based on my experience. I love head arm variations, and I love the d'arce most of all. It is versitile as a mother fucker, and is a slick submission.
    Last edited by Mr.Miyagi; 10/15/2012 10:44pm at . Reason: adding reference videos to help out.
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

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  3. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/18/2012 6:50pm


     Style: MMA, Yoga

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very good post.

    Darce is also my favorite submission, I love the control it gives and the multiple ways to finish.

    Regarding arm triangle v darce, I like to think body shape plays a roll in which you prefer. I have a horrid time trying to finish arm triangles with my lanky arms. If anyone has some tips please share.
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
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  4. RandomTriangle is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2012 10:18pm


     Style: Judo-Brown

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree, very good post. And i agree that between the Darce and the Arm triangle the Darce is King. But I'm going to cheat and change the question. I don't really use either that often. I use the chin strap guillotine variation infinitely more than, well, any other choke. There are several reasons for this.

    I was never exposed to the Darce as a ubiquitous technique. It obviously is, but I practiced the chin strap for years before i really tried working the Darce. Shocker, i like the technique im better at more.

    Also my primary top game attack is the kimura. So when "collecting" the far arm for an attack I usually attempt to get a kimura grip first, if i separate their elbow from their ribs, then supplement with a chin strap if I can't get the kimura grip.

    Finally, I do feel the chin strap is a little easier to slip in than the Darce. But again, I admit I'm bias. Idk, I guess I feel I see more guillotines than Darce in high level competition too.
  5. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2012 10:37pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have favored arm triangles since I started getting submitted with them as a blue belt. I don't really have a preference between the D'Arce and what you're calling the arm triangle. I utilize whatever is handy.

    The D'Arce is more common merely because the near side arm is easier to control and manipulate from most positions. Any opponent's limb is easier to control when you have the meat and weight of your torso right next to it to help out.

    I get the arm triangle from being off to the side with my opponent turtled under me. When I breadroll them onto their side, I pin what becomes their far arm under my upper chest. After they have been rolled all the way into side mount the arm is already underneath their chin and I am close to an optimal position to finish.
    Last edited by jnp; 10/23/2012 10:40pm at .
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  6. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/31/2012 1:56am


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTriangle View Post
    I agree, very good post. And i agree that between the Darce and the Arm triangle the Darce is King. But I'm going to cheat and change the question. I don't really use either that often. I use the chin strap guillotine variation infinitely more than, well, any other choke. There are several reasons for this.

    I was never exposed to the Darce as a ubiquitous technique. It obviously is, but I practiced the chin strap for years before i really tried working the Darce. Shocker, i like the technique im better at more.

    Also my primary top game attack is the kimura. So when "collecting" the far arm for an attack I usually attempt to get a kimura grip first, if i separate their elbow from their ribs, then supplement with a chin strap if I can't get the kimura grip.

    Finally, I do feel the chin strap is a little easier to slip in than the Darce. But again, I admit I'm bias. Idk, I guess I feel I see more guillotines than Darce in high level competition too.
    RandomTriangle, just to clarify (as it seems to change all over the place and who you talk to) when you say "kimura" you're talking about their hand down towards their hip—after who it's named—compared with the hand towards the head on what I'd call a "figure-4" grip to finish?

    If so, you're pinning their wrist, then going to collect their arm to finish the setup, but if you can't you go for the chin strap guillotine. Now, I think I know the move, but I had a hard time trying to find a video just to clarify the chin strap choke type, is there one you have that could help explain it?

    IF from the kimura setup then, I'm assuming it's the top arm wrapping back under their head from the farside, palm cupping their chin leading into a mounted guillotine ala Marcello Garcia with the other hand hooking; or just a single arm finish from side??
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

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  7. gzk is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2012 8:14am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry I'm late, but thanks a lot, Mr. Miyagi! :) It will take me a while to bring all of that into operation.
  8. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2012 3:55pm

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     Style: Combat Cuddling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The d'arce is more easily defended in my experience, the counters open to you when people try to escape the arm triangle are "better" imo. Since you can maintain top position, as opposed to the counter to the d'arce is to turtle and grab your leg to open the space between your arm and your neck.

    The arm triangle escapes typically leave your opponent underneath you with their arm vulnerable.
  9. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2013 10:07pm


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So I wanted to touch on this thread again as I've been training a lot more of the standard head arm finish due to Ryan Hall's Arm Triangle DVD set which is fucking amazing, btw.

    This set really changed my mind on how the Arm Triangle chokes worked (I don't know what type of retarded idea i had before) but it really clears it up. The way Ryan Hall shows his Head Arm Triangle blew my mind, I didn't think it would work, and there I was finishing people with one arm flexing the bicep and barely any pressure. It was like fucking magic.

    Sang and I started to really drill through more of the arm triangle variations, and he had a head strat on the DVD set, so when we rolled for the first time he had me caught in about a million head arm triangles (traditional I'm on my back, he's next to me and putting it on) I was like "Heh, I'll just defend with the leg gra-ARGHH I'm GETTING CHOKED OUT WTF". This really made me go home and watch it right away.

    So what really, really surprised me was that trying to get a 'clean' darce/brabo with a no gi grip felt almost impossible when we first started drilling them. We'd always get a neck crank in there from small to large as we fucked around with the positioning of top shoulder pressure. I think we finally found it out like 3 weeks of open mat drilling and experimentation and my lying awake in bed at night visualising the back ezekial with sleeve and how the pressure would work from behind to in front in the darce variation. I still think I need heaps more drilling with the darce from top to get it more naturally as I have this horrible case of muscle memory of the wrong style. When Ryan Hall said it was a choke that would take you a while to master, I laughed...oh how I laughed...the HUBRIS!

    The difference was pretty fucking huge. The concept of this new darce will put you out quick. I always thought moving to mount with the darce locked would be a huge neck crank, turns out that's bullshit and makes it an amazingly strong blood choke that makes you feel like your head will explode while also gifting the dude exploding your head mount if you somehow are able to snake out of the grip.

    This really changed all my thoughts on what I liked submission wise. Now I don't have a preference to darce/head arm etc, now it's whatever is open as I move:

    I'll hit the head arm if they leave that arm up from Kesa or split base side, even farside if I can get my head low and under his tricep, shin across hip to push him down, and then wiper my farside foot across to avoid half guard catch (even though it doesn't matter, you can still finish nice head arm with half guard, so awesome) squeeze my bicep and push my shoulder forward. Finishing this **** with one arm is just fucking fantastical for me...really mind blowing from the shitty RNC type grip neck breaking attack I was trying with my old-style head arm chokes.

    I now chain head arm with back sleeve ezekial as they roll away from me. If they roll towards I'll favour the darce again, but now...there's sooo many more options open. And directly from side control if they don't turn...loving the head arm:

    Palm flat on the ground, elbow on the ground, your head as low as you can get to the ground and turn your head into his head while you hold his tricep in the crook of your neck, and move your body slightly away from his, then squeeze bicep and push forward with your shoulder under his tricep = TAP or sleepytime. Add gable gripped second hand so they can't just Dragon Ball Z fly away in rage, otherwise it's just a control hand that I use to help pull to counter their rolling away weight.

    Sang will probably weigh in himself once he sees the thread updated :).
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

    Miyagi: Feeling correct.

    Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

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  10. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2013 10:10pm


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Miyagi View Post
    RandomTriangle, just to clarify (as it seems to change all over the place and who you talk to) when you say "kimura" you're talking about their hand down towards their hip—after who it's named—compared with the hand towards the head on what I'd call a "figure-4" grip to finish?

    If so, you're pinning their wrist, then going to collect their arm to finish the setup, but if you can't you go for the chin strap guillotine. Now, I think I know the move, but I had a hard time trying to find a video just to clarify the chin strap choke type, is there one you have that could help explain it?

    IF from the kimura setup then, I'm assuming it's the top arm wrapping back under their head from the farside, palm cupping their chin leading into a mounted guillotine ala Marcello Garcia with the other hand hooking; or just a single arm finish from side??
    RandomTriangle, I was able to answer my own questions with further experience and watching your competition videos just before, that made me think of this thread also and wanted to make an update, haha. Really cool to see what you were talking about in your vids as well as what you wrote here, hehe.
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

    Miyagi: Feeling correct.

    Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

    Miyagi: You trust the quality of what you know, not quantity.

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