And God Said "let there be arguments".

**Tom .C** · Posted On: 11/09/2012 10:30pm

Originally Posted by Internet-fu

As an agnostic leaning atheist I find it funny that people are actually arguing about religion on a forum that's supposed to be about identifying frauds and bullshit. But hey, that said.

I had a long talk with a Rabbi once at a friend's Jewish wedding. One of the things we talked about the stuff that's NOT in the Torah that is for some reason in the Old Testament. (Note: The entire validity of the Christian faith comes from it's supposed relationship to the Torah, which is supposed to be the Old Testament translated from Hebrew. It's very much not.)

No Devil. The only being that was anything close was "The Adversary" who was like the prosecuting attorney for God.

Hell is not permanent. It's a place you go where you see what your life could of been if you had been a better man. Jews also believe in re-incarnation.

There was no "war in heaven" and no "rebellion". Angels can't rebel. They don't have free will.

They were also highly accepting of other people and their religions. Even mine. When I asked the Rabbi why they said it was because they believe that all genuinely good people go to heaven. You don't have to be a Jew. And if you don't get it right the first time you get to come back and try again.

When atheists spend a lot of time arguing about whether or not Jesus existed I generally say they are barking up the wrong tree. Jesus is not the problem. All the bullshit done in the name of chasing down the fictional "Devil" and his human minions is what the problem is. Crusades, burning heretics, etc.

This documentary does a great job of debunking the "Satan" myth and gives the historical basis for how this entity was created and inserted into the Christian religion. Why? Because a church that teaches people that submitting to the church is not necessary to get into heaven does not have too much power.

That's only an hour. If you still believe in the devil after that fine. I respect other people's rights to believe whatever they want. All I ask is that they look at the evidence. And not try to force those beliefs on anyone else.

I like puppies...puppies and sweater monkies...yup, that's what I like

**Petter** · Posted On: 11/10/2012 2:11am

Originally Posted by Internet-fu

I had a long talk with a Rabbi once at a friend's Jewish wedding. One of the things we talked about the stuff that's NOT in the Torah that is for some reason in the Old Testament. (Note: The entire validity of the Christian faith comes from it's supposed relationship to the Torah, which is supposed to be the Old Testament translated from Hebrew. It's very much not.)

No Devil. The only being that was anything close was "The Adversary" who was like the prosecuting attorney for God.

Hell is not permanent. It's a place you go where you see what your life could of been if you had been a better man. Jews also believe in re-incarnation.

There was no "war in heaven" and no "rebellion". Angels can't rebel. They don't have free will.

Can you cite OT verses referring to the "war in heaven", Satan (excepting the Adversary whom Yahweh allowed to make Job miserable, on a dare), or hell as a place of eternal punishment?

Can you also cite authority or argument supporting your claim that "The entire validity of the Christian faith comes from it's supposed relationship to the Torah"?

My guess is that the answer to both questions is "no".

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 11/10/2012 10:42am

Originally Posted by Internet-fu

As an agnostic leaning atheist I find it funny that people are actually arguing about religion on a forum that's supposed to be about identifying frauds and bullshit. But hey, that said.

Interesting. In another thread you talk about ad hom ridicule and how it is wrong. You do realize this is a passive ad hom right? To be absolutely clear, you are complaining about ad hominem attacks and ridicule fallacies and you just committed both.

I had a long talk with a Rabbi once at a friend's Jewish wedding. One of the things we talked about the stuff that's NOT in the Torah that is for some reason in the Old Testament. (Note: The entire validity of the Christian faith comes from it's supposed relationship to the Torah, which is supposed to be the Old Testament translated from Hebrew. It's very much not.)

No Devil. The only being that was anything close was "The Adversary" who was like the prosecuting attorney for God.

Hell is not permanent. It's a place you go where you see what your life could of been if you had been a better man. Jews also believe in re-incarnation.

There was no "war in heaven" and no "rebellion". Angels can't rebel. They don't have free will.

They were also highly accepting of other people and their religions. Even mine. When I asked the Rabbi why they said it was because they believe that all genuinely good people go to heaven. You don't have to be a Jew. And if you don't get it right the first time you get to come back and try again.

When atheists spend a lot of time arguing about whether or not Jesus existed I generally say they are barking up the wrong tree. Jesus is not the problem. All the bullshit done in the name of chasing down the fictional "Devil" and his human minions is what the problem is. Crusades, burning heretics, etc.

This documentary does a great job of debunking the "Satan" myth and gives the historical basis for how this entity was created and inserted into the Christian religion. Why? Because a church that teaches people that submitting to the church is not necessary to get into heaven does not have too much power.

That's only an hour. If you still believe in the devil after that fine. I respect other people's rights to believe whatever they want. All I ask is that they look at the evidence. And not try to force those beliefs on anyone else.

Interesting. You said you read the beginning of a thread, which discusses a made up story about Jesus. Nothing about angels, Demons or gods. Yet, unlike anyone else in the thread, you took it to straight up religion.

No, the discussion is actually about HISTORICAL RESEARCH and HISTORICAL FACTS that happen to be related to religion. Yes, that's completely different than arguing religion.

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 11/10/2012 4:21pm

Originally Posted by Internet-fu

Yeah. I was commenting on the start of the thread.

OK then catch up already.

Damn, way to try spoiling what had turned into a good conversation about Bronze-age ballistics and involuntary battlefield circumcisions.

**jdogg33** · Posted On: 11/11/2012 5:04am

Wow, this thread had evolved! I thought it was dead, and got much more sleep. I'm off tomorrow, and decided to check for fun and Wow! As anyone might imagine, I have a few things to say about this.
If you believe the Old Testament, or the Torah, whatever, God created the angels. Some people believe in a whole system that sounds a lot like government. Lucifer was once God's favorite, but became the Adversary, the Accuser. Why, with all knowing wisdom, did he create him in the first place? Either God had a reason and a plan for what Lucifer would do, or he gave Lucifer enough power to become The Adversary on his own. An omnipotent God would have seen this before creating him.
And if an omnipotent God had the power to create such a creature, and it he has become the evil one who wants to destroy mankind, why does God not simply destroy him! Does it make even the slightest sense that he would leave that to the hands of snake handling poison drinking fools to do his work?
Or, is God more like us, and can't control what he has created, just like children who take the wrong paths and can't be helped. And how much power do angels really have? If God sends them to do something, why not do it himself? If you're omnipotent, it shouldn't be too much trouble. But then again, I am a fool, and I cannot profess to know or understand the mind of God.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 11/11/2012 8:18am

Originally Posted by jdogg33

Wow, this thread had evolved! I thought it was dead, and got much more sleep. I'm off tomorrow, and decided to check for fun and Wow! As anyone might imagine, I have a few things to say about this.
If you believe the Old Testament, or the Torah, whatever, God created the angels. Some people believe in a whole system that sounds a lot like government. Lucifer was once God's favorite, but became the Adversary, the Accuser. Why, with all knowing wisdom, did he create him in the first place? Either God had a reason and a plan for what Lucifer would do, or he gave Lucifer enough power to become The Adversary on his own. An omnipotent God would have seen this before creating him.
And if an omnipotent God had the power to create such a creature, and it he has become the evil one who wants to destroy mankind, why does God not simply destroy him! Does it make even the slightest sense that he would leave that to the hands of snake handling poison drinking fools to do his work?
Or, is God more like us, and can't control what he has created, just like children who take the wrong paths and can't be helped. And how much power do angels really have? If God sends them to do something, why not do it himself? If you're omnipotent, it shouldn't be too much trouble. But then again, I am a fool, and I cannot profess to know or understand the mind of God.

Yes, I knew this is what you wanted from jump. No one bit on your slow turns and religion laden posts. I do like that ONE person addressed God, the Devil and other religious aspects and we get "WOW..."

Well, I'll make sure you get your own thread to discuss religion. The rest of us were having a historical figure and weapons debate.

**Styygens** · Posted On: 11/11/2012 8:22pm

Originally Posted by jdogg33

Wow, this thread had evolved! blah blah blah
If you believe the Old Testament, or the Torah, whatever, God created the angels... Lucifer was once God's favorite, but became the Adversary, the Accuser. Why, with all knowing wisdom, did he create him in the first place? Either God had a reason and a plan for what Lucifer would do, or he gave Lucifer enough power to become The Adversary on his own. An omnipotent God would have seen this before creating him.
And if an omnipotent God had the power to create such a creature, and it he has become the evil one who wants to destroy mankind, why does God not simply destroy him! ...

blah blah blah...

But then again, I am a fool, and I cannot profess to know or understand the mind of God.

yadda yadda yadda

Wiki cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

Obligatory cliched statement: "The greatest philosophers have already wrestled endlessly with this question, I doubt we'll settle it here on Bullshido..."

yadda yadda yadda

All those wanting to argue about religion/theology, please start a new thread. This thread is about Bronze Age warfare and the relationship of relevant cultural literature to the historical record.