Judo-When your partner wants to kill you

**CrackFox** · Posted On: 10/12/2012 11:54am

Originally Posted by NeilG

Halfway between. They know they are going too hard, they just can't seem to curb their desire to win all the time. It seems to take a while to drill into their heads that randori isn't about winning, but rather about learning.

None of the guys in my club that have a problem with going too hard are genuinely assholes, they just seem completely incapable of gauging what they are doing and are all very focused on winning at the things they do.

I train in a university club with a load of 18-22 year old guys it's hilarious sometimes. Our coach has stopped doing flow warm ups because there's always guys who try to kill each other during it, and on at least one occasion while demonstrating a turn over on a guy who wouldn't stop defending, he told the class to hang on a second while he went and did the move for real, then switched ukis.

**pepto_bismol** · Posted On: 10/12/2012 12:30pm

Originally Posted by crappler

OH, and as for the "midlife crisis" comment. Totally true. Part of the problem is the level of disrespect that is out there coming from the young folks and the erroneous belief that we need to physically dominate someone to gain their respect. After all, Batman does it.

Yeah I left out the part about me being in my 20s deliberately to see if anybody else would raise this point. I think that my age is a factor, and although I do my best not to disrespect anyone in class, older guys may assume that all young folks are the same and that secretly inside I am disrespecting them and that I just can not wait for the moment that Judo ends and the video gaming/binge drinking begins.

**dustymars** · Posted On: 10/12/2012 1:58pm

In Japan and/or Okinawa in the 1960's we would work out so hard that blood would flow from our hands. Blisters and all. At times a bloody nose, eyebrow or lip. We loved Judo then. We were young and foolish. I miss it; being young and foolish.

**goodlun** · Posted On: 10/12/2012 3:46pm

Originally Posted by dustymars

I miss it; being young and foolish.

Well in your case you really only need to miss one of those two things

**Tom .C** · Posted On: 10/12/2012 8:18pm

Originally Posted by dustymars

In Japan and/or Okinawa in the 1960's we would work out so hard that blood would flow from our hands. Blisters and all. At times a bloody nose, eyebrow or lip. We loved Judo then. We were young and foolish. I miss it; being young and foolish.

The training in the old days would push you way past your limits. It was the norm to show up and work out with screwed up knees, fingers, ribs, and toes. I still see the same love for Judo, but it seems like safety is of more concern than back then. I think it evolved because it was pretty hard to practice when your best players kept quitting due to injuries. These days, having a player that hurts others on a regular basis, leads to some pretty intense discussion about the value of safety. It sometimes ends with the door hitting someone in the ass.

**crappler** · Posted On: 10/12/2012 10:47pm

Originally Posted by pepto_bismol

Yeah I left out the part about me being in my 20s deliberately to see if anybody else would raise this point. I think that my age is a factor, and although I do my best not to disrespect anyone in class, older guys may assume that all young folks are the same and that secretly inside I am disrespecting them and that I just can not wait for the moment that Judo ends and the video gaming/binge drinking begins.

People who actually are decent at martial arts usually aren't insecure. You sound like a cool dude and deserve better.

**goodlun** · Posted On: 10/13/2012 3:32am

Originally Posted by Tom .C

The training in the old days would push you way past your limits. It was the norm to show up and work out with screwed up knees, fingers, ribs, and toes. I still see the same love for Judo, but it seems like safety is of more concern than back then. I think it evolved because it was pretty hard to practice when your best players kept quitting due to injuries. These days, having a player that hurts others on a regular basis, leads to some pretty intense discussion about the value of safety. It sometimes ends with the door hitting someone in the ass.

See this is my rub with this old days hard judo ya ya ya crap. The WHOLE point of Judo was to be able to practice it full force against a resistant opponent without getting hurt.
I mean not getting fucked up doing training is at the very heart of the Martial Art. Not this crazy oh we where tuff you are all a bunch of pussies ****.

**Tom .C** · Posted On: 10/13/2012 9:45am

Originally Posted by goodlun

The WHOLE point of Judo was to be able to practice it full force against a resistant opponent without getting hurt.
I mean not getting fucked up doing training is at the very heart of the Martial Art. Not this crazy oh we where tuff you are all a bunch of pussies ****.

The problem with practice is that, more often than not, you may be practicing Judo and your partner may just be trying to kick your ass. Randori can be played with "mutual welfare and benefit for all" or it can be full out battle. I have played with people who were trying to learn technique and people who try to turn everything into some sort of makikomi.

Proper Judo "practice" is when two people pair up and work on their skills. They don't kick a big hemtoma into your shins and call it a footsweep. They throw with control instead of dropping you on your neck or falling and crushing your ribs. If they have more experience, they work with you instead of pounding you into the mat.

To tell you the truth, it took a while for some of us to figure it out. If we had learned this earlier, we would not have had such high attrition rates and would have more skilled Judo players/teachers today. If you look around on this site, Aron Fields, Roy Hash, Ben, etc. are all senior players/teachers that have a lot to offer the Judo community. We could use a hell of a lot more of them.

**BKR** · Posted On: 10/13/2012 11:34am

Originally Posted by Tom .C

The problem with practice is that, more often than not, you may be practicing Judo and your partner may just be trying to kick your ass. Randori can be played with "mutual welfare and benefit for all" or it can be full out battle. I have played with people who were trying to learn technique and people who try to turn everything into some sort of makikomi.

Proper Judo "practice" is when two people pair up and work on their skills. They don't kick a big hemtoma into your shins and call it a footsweep. They throw with control instead of dropping you on your neck or falling and crushing your ribs. If they have more experience, they work with you instead of pounding you into the mat.

To tell you the truth, it took a while for some of us to figure it out. If we had learned this earlier, we would not have had such high attrition rates and would have more skilled Judo players/teachers today. If you look around on this site, Aron Fields, Roy Hash, Ben, etc. are all senior players/teachers that have a lot to offer the Judo community. We could use a hell of a lot more of them.

You just saved me a lot of posting, LOL.

The whole issue the OP brought up has two levels. First level is the personality/aims of the individual judoka involved. The second level is the control exerted by the head instructor and/or whoever is supervising on the mat at the time.

In the end, the primary responsibility lies with the head coach/instructor/sensei. He/she either allows that kind of behavior (as described by the OP), or not. I've used both a carrot and a stick to make people toe the line. The carrot usually works better, but sometimes the stick is needed. And sometimes people are just told to leave and not come back if they cannot adjust their attitude. As I get older, my ability to wield a ****** against young, strong guys gets less and less. Although I guess you could use a large enough carrot as a stick?

A key feature of Judo is the idea of mutual welfare and benefit/you and me shining together/whatever your preferred translation of Jita Kyoei. Judo is not of course the originator of this idea, but we are supposed to practice/train/compete that way if we claim to be doing Kodokan Judo.

Not always the case, though.

As far as the injury goes, see a doctor, prefereably a sports medicine doctor/orthopaedist. I'd say talk to the head coach/sensei about the guy, but obviously he/she doesn't give a ****.

Ben

**pepto_bismol** · Posted On: 10/16/2012 11:52pm

There were a lot of good points made on this thread and I sincerely appreciate everyone's input. For those of you who would like an update on my situation, today the 240 lbs. man that injured me was paired up with a very novice, lightweight judoka. The 240lbs. man threw his much lighter uke directly on to his head 3 times with the same makikomi throw that he injured me with. His partner had to stop training for the night. Hopefully the lightweight judoka is not injured too seriously. A few more injuries like the one that happened tonight and I suspect that the antagonist in this story will no longer have anybody left to train with. After class today four of our best black belts including our club's head coach were refining his technique, but I don't know if he is willing to learn. Previous experience in similar situations tells me probably not.