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  1. Keej613 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 1:10pm


     Style: It's complicated.

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tmorterlaing View Post
    So now comes my quandary- there are a lot of people, especially on these forums, who love MMA and BJJ and seem to doubt the ability of traditional forms. First question; is this because JJJ has been so corrupted and warped by club politics, Chinese whispers and idiot fakers that it has lost any element of actual jujitsu?
    By using what I've learned from browsing Bullshido, Sherdog, Wikipedia (etc) and from reading up about the histories of various martial arts, styles, systems and schools, I will attempt to illustrate why so many people (especially in North America) are skeptical about most JJJ schools and systems and tend to favour BJJ and/or Judo rather than JJJ. (PS: Just read the bolded statements at the end of each paragraph if you're a TL/DR kind of guy.)

    1. In North America, most of what is referred to as Japanese Jiu-Jitsu / Jujutsu (or JJJ) isn't really Japanese per se; it's mostly North American-made systems that are based on JJJ and/or Judo moves but that generally have also had a handful of traditional techniques removed and/or a handful of techniques from other styles added to it. For example, most "JJJ" schools in Canada are based on or variants of the Can-Ryu system which is based on Kodokan Judo, Kawaishi Jiu-Jitsu and Chito-Ryu Karate. Can-Ryu does not teach the complete Kodokan, Kawaishi and Chito-Ryu curriculums. Rather, it incorporates some techniques from all three curriculums that the founders of Can-Ryu felt were the most effective for self-defense. Over the years and generations, various blackbelts of the Can-Ryu system have gone on to create their own systems and schools based on Can-Ryu by adding and taking away techniques and by shifting the focus from one area to another. The result of this phenomenon (across various schools and systems - not just Can-Ryu) is that, while many North American "JJJ" schools were, at one point, very close to sources directly from Japan (many founders of North American systems being early Japanese immigrants to North America and/or being North Americans who trained directly under genuine Japanese masters of legitimate Japanese arts and systems), the more the years roll by, the more the offshoot systems pop-up, the less they can really claim to be Japanese systems. (Just to to reinforce my point: Many North American "JJJ" schools describe on their their public websites that their "JJJ" systems incorporate Western boxing, Greco-Roman wrestling, Filipino Kali/Eskrima (etc) into their curriculums; not as classes on the side but as fundamental components of their systems.) My point: JJJ schools in North America generally don't really teach JJJ.

    2. This means that saying "I do JJJ" can be a pretty murky statement in North America. I've seen "JJJ" schools that trained just like BJJ schools. I've seen "JJJ" schools that did nothing but standing Aikido techniques and Judo throws with compliant parters. I've seen "JJJ" schools that trained just like MMA schools with full standup sparring, takedowns and groundfighting. I've seen "JJJ" schools that put zero emphasis on the "sport" aspect of martial arts and put all of the focus on (what they claimed ws) reality-based self-defense where you learned to defend against multiple attackers with weapons and you could target the groin and eyes. (ETC!) Things vary drastically from school to school. That's a huge contrast compared to just about any Judo school which almost certainly adheres to the requirements of the central governing body of Judo and which almost certainly teaches the standard techniques and rules of Kodokan and/or Olympic Judo. Ditto for BJJ schools ; most legitimate, affiliated BJJ schools report to a centralized governing body, have similar curriculums, similar approaches, similar rulesets, similar requirements for promotions, etc. If you switched from one Judo school to another, or from one BJJ school to another, you probably wouldn't be too surprised by the "new" curriculums. But, when it comes to "JJJ", you never really know what you'll get. You wouldn't expect to learn unarmed sword defense techniques from a Judo or a BJJ school . . . but you might learn that from a "JJJ" school . . . but you might not! It varies from school to school and system to system. In addition, most BJJ blackbelts can trace their lineage fairly directly to a BJJ master in Brazil, most Judo blackbelts can trace their lineage fairly directly to a national master certified by a governing body in Japan whereas most North American "JJJ" black belts can only trace their lineage up their school's food chain because the origins of their (North-American made) system is probably a bit cloudy due to all-too-common political issues and splits from preceding schools and systems, etc. My points: The term "JJJ" generally doesn't accurately describe exactly what someone practices whereas the terms Judo and BJJ generally do. "JJJ" lineage in North America is often very hard to trace to its original source whereas Judo and BJJ lineages generally aren't. These two elements combined make Judo and BJJ appear more consistent, transparent and legitimate.

    3. Whereas most Judo programs have a narrow focus on throws/takedowns and BJJ programs have a narrow focus on ground fighting and submissions, JJJ systems that are actually from Japan (Koryu or modern) as well as the JJJ-inspired systems from North America are much more diffuse and usually include a variety of techniques: standup striking, striking an oppenent when downed, standing submissions / joint locks, small digit manipulation, defense against weapons attacks, defense against multiple attackers, throws and takedowns, groundfighting / submissions, etc. So think of it this way: comparing a guy who's been doing Judo or BJJ for 10 years to a guy who's been doing JJJ or a JJJ-inspired system for 10 years is like comparing a guy with 10 years of bricklaying experience to a guy with 10 years of general contracting experience; the general contactor will probably be very good all around but that bricklayer is going to be one stellar bricklayer since he's concentrated all of his training and experience on a very specific field of practice. My point: JJJ and "JJJ" training is more diffuse whereas Judo and BJJ training has a narrower scope. Judo and BJJ athletes get better at (respectively) particularly useful aspects of martial arts more quickly than most JJJ and "JJJ" athletes.

    4. Finally, this is possibly the most important part: Most JJJ and "JJJ" schools in North America have either a "reality-based self-defense (RBSD)" focus or "traditional theory" focus whereas most Judo and BJJ schools emphasize sport competition and training with alive, fully-resisting opponents (training partners). In the case of the former (JJJ and "JJJ"), training usually consists of learning a technique and practicing it on compliant partners until you can repeat the technique without coaching: Step 1, step 2, step 3, repeat. This is either because many technique are "lethal" (they would seriously harm your training partner) or because you're learning these techniques for traditional / theoretical reasons (learning a martial art not for it's true application but for the health benefits and historical / cultural aspects.) Sure, you'll learn to do a nice, clean uki-goshi . . . but you'll learn to do it out of context; you won't know how to set it up in a real confrontation / fight / competition because you've only ever practiced it by standing in front of your compliant partner, you won't know what to do when your opponent resists because you've only ever practiced it with a partner who went along with it, and you won't know what to follow up with if you can't complete the move because you've probably never practiced that scenario in training. (Didn't complete it? Start over and try again!) This is in stark contrast to Judo and BJJ training which focuses on realistic application of techniques with includes regular practice with alive, fully-resisting opponents. Not to mention that, like I mentioned in the previous "diffuse VS narrow scope" paragraph, a lot of what JJJ and "JJJ" teaches simply isn't allowed or doesn't happen in martial arts competitions or MMA fights. It's cool to learn unarmed defenses from multiple opponents armed with machetes or clubs but, let's face it: you can't realistically simulate that in training plus it'll simply never happen in a grappling competition, a kickboxing match or an MMA fight. That's not to say that martial arts competitions / matches / fights are the only way to measure martial arts skills but the fact of the matter is that it all boils down to what Mike Tyson said: Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. While you were spending all that time drilling defending against a theoretical nunchuck attack, the Judo athletes were practicing what to do when they get slammed into the floor and the BJJ athletes were practicing what to do when someone is choking them from behind. My points: Many JJJ and "JJJ" schools in North America teach from a theoretical perspective, don't teach realistic scenarios for modern self-defense situations and/or combat sports competition, and don't offer realistic training practices. Most Judo and BJJ schools do.

    So there you have it. For the record, I'm far from being a JJJ / "JJJ" hater. I've had extremely good experiences with JJJ / "JJJ" schools:

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=102667&page=1

    But I've also had less than stellar experiences with JJJ / "JJJ" schools:

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=114931

    Ultimately, that's why I wanted to share my perspective on North American JJJ / "JJJ" schools and systems. I hope you find this info useful.
    Last edited by Keej613; 10/09/2012 1:19pm at .
  2. Keej613 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2012 1:24pm


     Style: It's complicated.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  3. Tom .C is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2012 1:40pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Aikido,Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keej613 View Post
    Would you pleas read that to me again?
  4. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2012 4:56pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom .C View Post
    Would you pleas read that to me again?
    Translation: It's mostly what's called gendai budo--a "modernized" and noncompetitive approach to martial arts, based in traditional jujutsu. It often has a self-defense focus, even though they (usually) can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Or, in other words, aikido but sometimes it teaches stuff that works.
  5. Keej613 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2012 10:25am


     Style: It's complicated.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Translation: It's mostly what's called gendai budo--a "modernized" and noncompetitive approach to martial arts, based in traditional jujutsu. It often has a self-defense focus, even though they (usually) can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Or, in other words, aikido but sometimes it teaches stuff that works.
    Isn't Judo a gendai budo style / system / sport?
  6. tmorterlaing is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2012 10:28am


     Style: Jujitsu and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Translation: It's mostly what's called gendai budo--a "modernized" and noncompetitive approach to martial arts, based in traditional jujutsu. It often has a self-defense focus, even though they (usually) can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Or, in other words, aikido but sometimes it teaches stuff that works.
    Wet paper bag, thats a bit harsh isnt it? I mean even if not taught the best thing ever, it's still better than TKD, and still teaches principles of footwork, stamina, conditioning against strikes as well as a few techniques which may work right? Or is that wrong?
  7. Keej613 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2012 10:51am


     Style: It's complicated.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Depends on the school rather than the style, I suppose. I've trained with JJJ guys that could hold their own with BJJ guys. But I've also trained with JJJ guys who could only pull off a move with completely compliant partners and who'd never actually done any ground fighting.
  8. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2012 2:06pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tmorterlaing View Post
    Wet paper bag, thats a bit harsh isnt it? I mean even if not taught the best thing ever, it's still better than TKD, and still teaches principles of footwork, stamina, conditioning against strikes as well as a few techniques which may work right? Or is that wrong?
    You mileage may vary ... widely. JJJ can mean a wide range of things, but I gave you a down-the-middle description. It's like "kung fu" or "karate". Most of it is ****, but then you also have kung fu guys like Omega or karate guys like Machida (and all of kyokushin karate). I've seen JJJ that was pretty tough and very Judo-based (like Danzan-ryu) and JJJ that's like bad aikido--a bunch of douchebags in pyjamas playing at samurai and ninja. Hell, the X-kan's are kinds of JJJ.
  9. Keej613 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2012 10:54am


     Style: It's complicated.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's frustrating. You can walk into almost any BJJ school and expect a decent workout and alive training but, with JJJ / "JJJ" schools, it's a total gamble.
  10. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2012 12:23pm


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Translation: It's mostly what's called gendai budo
    Judo and kendo are also gendai budo. The term just means modern martial arts.
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