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  1. SamHarber is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 8:41pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boffo - you're forgetting one major point - The english never learnt well from their defeats. We're the people who thought that slowly marching on a machine gun nest in WW1 would catch the Hun unaware the 17th time we did it.
    The ballistics tests I've seen demonstrated that longbow arrows could not penetrate properly constructed and padded mail armor. And in well forged mail, they didn't even need the padding! And plate provided more protection and was easier to wear.
    Trust me, you need padding. Maille does nothing to prevent broken bones
    As for arrows penetrating maille and plate, it did depend on construction. A bodkin head on a longbow went through pretty much any maille at any distance as the links were made from iron and just not strong enough to prevent snaps and deformation of the surrounding rings. As for plate, there was normally at least an inch of heavy padding behind it which would stop or slow most arrows apart from those shot at close range. A friend of mine did some experiments with modern maille, made from 6mm round steel links (unriveted) in a 8:1 pattern. Arrows just bounced off that as there was no room for the point to lodge. Medieval maille was made from 4:1 or rarely 6:1 patterns as it was just so time consuming to do. This makes it just a string vest to a bodkin which will go straight through. It was more effective against hunting arrows with their broader heads.
    The hammer or pick were definately the weapons to go for, but it probably wasn't the done thing for a knight to use such a common weapon.

    "Not in the face!"
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  2. Groganer is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 9:45pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The takedown you're talking about (low ankle) was one that Smith was a master of in Olympic wrestling (freestyle). I used to call it the mongoose shot.
  3. Boffo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 9:49pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boffo - you're forgetting one major point - The english never learnt well from their defeats. We're the people who thought that slowly marching on a machine gun nest in WW1 would catch the Hun unaware the 17th time we did it.
    Isn't there a plaque for a University in England somewhere that commerates the ENTIRE CLASS OF 1915 having died in battle? Ye gods but WWI was a nasty place to be on the battlefield.

    Trust me, you need padding. Maille does nothing to prevent broken bones
    You got a point there. My arguement was that with maille (thanks for the correct spelling, I forgot) stopped penetration from arrows loosed from an English style longbow. On the other hand, the Turkic/Mongolian bows do an awesome job of penetrating maille armor, much to the chagrin of European warriors in the 13th century.

    As for arrows penetrating maille and plate, it did depend on construction. A bodkin head on a longbow went through pretty much any maille at any distance as the links were made from iron and just not strong enough to prevent snaps and deformation of the surrounding rings.
    Great points!

    But how common were bodkin heads? I've always wondered that point. Especially since bodkin arrows were not as damaging as other arrows. Sure, they might penetrate the armor, but would they finish off the foe? I wonder how this could be found out?

    As for plate, there was normally at least an inch of heavy padding behind it which would stop or slow most arrows apart from those shot at close range. A friend of mine did some experiments with modern maille, made from 6mm round steel links (unriveted) in a 8:1 pattern. Arrows just bounced off that as there was no room for the point to lodge. Medieval maille was made from 4:1 or rarely 6:1 patterns as it was just so time consuming to do. This makes it just a string vest to a bodkin which will go straight through. It was more effective against hunting arrows with their broader heads.
    I would love to see a test of bodkin arrows loosed from a longbow versus riveted maille.

    The hammer or pick were definately the weapons to go for, but it probably wasn't the done thing for a knight to use such a common weapon.
    Too much art from the late armor periods show knights using hammers and picks. Also, armor and weapons exhibits (like the Styrian one) show lots of handy 'can openers'.

    My guess is that your average knight in the late medeival to middle renaissance periods brought along several weapons for battle. The hammer and pick for fighting other knights and swords for the less armored folk. Swords would probably be carried as badges of office, or used as a last resort, since the edges would dull quick slashing through decent armor. Or against the common drek wearing brigantines of various sorts.
  4. SamHarber is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 11:12pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But how common were bodkin heads? I've always wondered that point. Especially since bodkin arrows were not as damaging as other arrows. Sure, they might penetrate the armor, but would they finish off the foe? I wonder how this could be found out?
    Bodkins were standard in all english military campaigns. Your right in that they were not as lethal as other styles, but they were the only ones that could penetrate the armour. there are many stories of mounted knights breaking through the archers ranks with dozens of arrows sticking in them. Fortunately the archers secondary job was cutting trees down for defensive positions, so any knight making it that far would then be attacked by lots of people with big axes.
    Usesless facts: At Agincourt 1 million arrows were fired in the first 15 minutes. At Cressey, the english were suffering from dysentry, so the archers went naked from the waist down. Not a pretty sight.
    I would love to see a test of bodkin arrows loosed from a longbow versus riveted maille
    Nobody is insane enough to make a riveted suit of maille these days. It used to take an experienced apprentice something in the region of a year to make a riveted suit. A bodkin would still go straight through it.
    My arguement was that with maille (thanks for the correct spelling, I forgot) stopped penetration from arrows loosed from an English style longbow. On the other hand, the Turkic/Mongolian bows do an awesome job of penetrating maille armor, much to the chagrin of European warriors in the 13th century.
    The english longbow had a draw weight of up to 180 lbs (measured from staves taken from the wreck of the Mary Rose). That will go through damned near anything. Mongolian bows only have a draw weight of 60-80lbs but their design makes for a much more efficient transfer of power. A big factor is that the Mongols wore baggy silk shirts under their armour, which got sucked into the wound along with the arrow. This made for much easier extraction and greatly reduced the chance of infection. The English more than likely got an infection from every wound they took.
    Ahh.. Happy days.


    "Not in the face!"
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  5. Michael

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 11:19pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Savate?
  6. Kato is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2002 12:47am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    cumberland wrestling!!!
  7. gong sau is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2002 3:53am

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     Style: Brazillian Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool! Martial arts word association! Can I play?

    Ummm, Krabi Krabong!

    First, I'm gonna hit ya...then your gonna fall
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    "The difference between us, and other martial arts websites you might be looking for, is that we're not going to feed you, well, bullshit about martial arts."
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  8. Boffo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2002 3:16pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bodkins were standard in all english military campaigns. Your right in that they were not as lethal as other styles, but they were the only ones that could penetrate the armour. there are many stories of mounted knights breaking through the archers ranks with dozens of arrows sticking in them. Fortunately the archers secondary job was cutting trees down for defensive positions, so any knight making it that far would then be attacked by lots of people with big axes.
    If the knights en masse got through the archer's fire to the archers, there would be no more archers. Remember, the end of knights didn't happen from one or two decisive battles (Agincourt or cressey) , but happened slowly and over a period of centuries. The knight went down more for economic reasons than that of tactical. The best plate armor in the world came after the longbow battles and continued to be worn for a long time on the battlefield. That the longbow ended the knight is apocryphal.

    Usesless facts: At Agincourt 1 million arrows were fired in the first 15 minutes. At Cressey, the english were suffering from dysentry, so the archers went naked from the waist down. Not a pretty sight.
    Don't forget that the middle finger as obscene gesture comes from Agincourt. The English were mocking the Dauphin's pre-battle declaration that he would cut off the middle finger of all those captured at the end of the fight.

    Nobody is insane enough to make a riveted suit of maille these days. It used to take an experienced apprentice something in the region of a year to make a riveted suit. A bodkin would still go straight through it.
    Being an actual scientist, I still want to see the ballistic test. Sometimes reality will not go with what we consider common sense.

    As for making riveted maille, there were villages and towns devoted to this craft. They used secret tools and methods lost in time that modern armor specialists would give their left nut to know. It takes them a year to make that armor, but what about the guys centuries ago?

    The english longbow had a draw weight of up to 180 lbs (measured from staves taken from the wreck of the Mary Rose). That will go through damned near anything.
    I am dubious about the weight. Can you document this poundage? Also, was this an exceptional amount or the average norm? As for the penetrative capabilities of the english longbow, they have been demonstrated in numerous scientific ballistic tests not to be able to penetrate through damned near everything.

    Mongolian bows only have a draw weight of 60-80lbs but their design makes for a much more efficient transfer of power.
    Are you sure about this weight? I can't find the draw weights for Mongolian style bows, but this seems suspiciously low. I do know that stringing a mongolian bow by yourself will cost you your fingers, as it is a two man job.

    A big factor is that the Mongols wore baggy silk shirts under their armour, which got sucked into the wound along with the arrow. This made for much easier extraction and greatly reduced the chance of infection. The English more than likely got an infection from every wound they took.
    The Mongols made up for the infection bit by never changing their clothes. :D
  9. SamHarber is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2002 3:44pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ooh... a challenge. I'll try and find some sources now.

    "Not in the face!"
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  10. SamHarber is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2002 4:15pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Draw weight of a longbow was 100lbs to 180lbs - see http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~socs31/traditional.html
    Mongolian bows are discussed on http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~socs31/asianturkish.html but doesn't specifically mention their draw weights. Chinese bows, which were similar were up to 100lbs
    Photos of the damage a longbow can do are at http://home.btclick.com/bickerstaffebows/news_and_pictures.htm
    As for making riveted maille, there were villages and towns devoted to this craft. They used secret tools and methods lost in time that modern armor specialists would give their left nut to know. It takes them a year to make that armor, but what about the guys centuries ago?
    No sources for this but I remember reading that it took 1 manyear to make a maille shirt in the early middle ages.
    I'm being forced to do some work now, so I'll have to come back to this.

    "Not in the face!"
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
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