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  1. SamHarber is offline

    Taking a break

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 11:19am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Medieval swordfighting, as practiced by armoured knights was a bit of a bizarre affair. They were so heavily armoured that the edges of their swords didn't really have much effect on each other, so they had to stab with these huge swords for penetration. It was more common to use the sword as a club, holding it by the blade and hitting with the heavy pommel whilst grappling. The aim was to wear out your opponent to the point where you could get a good stab while they're on the floor.
    Although the armour is very maneouverable, the padding worn underneath it causes heat exhaustion very quickly. One of my hobbies involves wearing a suit of armour and having the crap kicked out of me, so I know how they feel.

    "Not in the face!"
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  2. Kato is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 1:25pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll stick with the 17th century stuff...bugger armour, it would do my head in. You do this in the UK Sam?
  3. SamHarber is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 2:26pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yup. medieval re-enactment and associated stuff is pretty big here. However, the american SCA probably outnumbers all the major groups in the UK. Which worries me a little.

    "Not in the face!"
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  4. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 3:18pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok...Since no one has thrown this out, how about catch as catch can wrestling and boxing. I believe they would hold true for non-asian martial arts (not everything needs a shiny weapon to be a martial art) ;)

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  5. SamHarber is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 3:34pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wrestling is pretty much a natural reaction so all cultures have developed it in some form. The Vikings had an unusual style in which they stood right foot to right foot, clasping right hands. They then had to throw each other without moving their right foot. This seems to me to be equivalent to Chinese Pushing Hands. You can win through brute strength, but a weaker, more skillful player will win every time. Hell, give it a go, see what happens.

    "Not in the face!"
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  6. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 5:11pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gilma (wrestling from Iceland) was pretty nice way to learn to use your upper body.

    Also many cultures had develope many stick fighting discplines (The Canary Islands and Several african versions that differ form tribe to tribe) many do not have names.

    >the greeks didn't. the romans did, and that's most likely what led to the demise of the art, since submissions are kind of moot with spiked gloves.

    Hell if I was pummeling someone with a cestus (the spike glove mentioned) I wouldn't worry about submissions either. I think the demise of pancrase started when pple got bored and wanted to throw lions and other beast into the mix then men fighting each other with weapons seemed more popular.

    And as far a modern pancrase goes. I would be RECREATING the art based on historical informantion but you must let pple know you are RECREATING. However it would be hard to consider pancrase an art given the nature of it is history. Fighters who fought in the pancrase had various methods but no structure of such methods.



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  7. Boffo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 6:24pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Medieval swordfighting, as practiced by armoured knights was a bit of a bizarre affair. They were so heavily armoured that the edges of their swords didn't really have much effect on each other, so they had to stab with these huge swords for penetration.
    The effectiveness of armor depends on the period. Besides, most battles were decided with spears and polearms, not the sword. The sword was a badge of office, not much more.

    It was more common to use the sword as a club, holding it by the blade and hitting with the heavy pommel whilst grappling. The aim was to wear out your opponent to the point where you could get a good stab while they're on the floor.
    Or better yet, use a hammer or pick. On 14th century English battlefield escavations the majority of injured bones were punctured skulls and shattered thighs. The first from picks and the second from bills.
  8. Boffo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 6:31pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The greeks didn't. the romans did, and that's most likely what led to the demise of the art, since submissions are kind of moot with spiked gloves.
    That 'demise' took centuries. And only ended with the outlawing of Gladatorial sports.

    fencing is a broad term, usually referring to foil, epee, and sabre fencing. in addition there were italian, french, english, and spanish methods, all of which pretty much blended into modern fencing. whatever school there was for longsword or whatever probably just died out or was adapted for the rapier and other lighter weapons. i'm sure some stav guy is going to disagree with me.
    When the rapier beat out the longsword and cut-and-thrust sword for populairty, rapiers weighed just as much as those other weapons. Rapier means dress sword, and there is good evidence that the rapier became popular for civilians because it was fashionable, much like TKD is today.

    As for the old styles, Spanish sword-and-buckler was used with great effect on the battlefields until the 1750s. The Scots charged into battle with Claymores and beat the English for quite a while in the 1730s. The Pirates of the Carribean and the Indian sea relied on hacking cutlasses, and mocked the rapier fighters.

    Fencing weapons were almost always for civilians. Slashing swords were generally for soldiers.
  9. JKDChick is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 7:33pm

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     Style: JKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did anyone else see that demo a few years back, when a bunch of medevial history guys try to prove whether or not arrows could penetrate plate armor?

    Scary -- a long bow arrow went through the breast plate at a frighteningly long distance. The long bow and the heavy crossbow had the same effect on sword combat that the nuclear weapon did on modern combat.

    Escrima means "fencing" or "fence" or "sword" by the way -- it's a French loan-word the Spanish brought to the islands, since French was the language of government and trade at the time. Kali, as I understand it, is the mother art of that area, spawning the regional "escrima" and "arnis" styles. Obviously, there is debate over that point.

    "I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."
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  10. Boffo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2002 8:03pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did anyone else see that demo a few years back, when a bunch of medevial history guys try to prove whether or not arrows could penetrate plate armor?

    Scary -- a long bow arrow went through the breast plate at a frighteningly long distance. The long bow and the heavy crossbow had the same effect on sword combat that the nuclear weapon did on modern combat.
    What? Where did you see this?

    The ballistics tests I've seen demonstrated that longbow arrows could not penetrate properly constructed and padded mail armor. And in well forged mail, they didn't even need the padding! And plate provided more protection and was easier to wear.

    Here are some questions about any tests conducted:

    1. Armor Quality: Is the chainmail of proper riveted construction? Is the plate properly forged or is it just sheet metal molded to shape?

    2. Target Design: What lies underneath the armor? A padded undercoat or a wooden dummy?

    3. Range of the weapon. Up close an arrow will penetrate more effectively than at a more realistic range.

    I've heard of demonstrations of this sort of stuff where the mail is draped over a target, or the mail obviously made from venting sheets. Then the archer takes a shot and impresses the tourists.

    Historical plate mail was forged through a complex process that required an amazing amount of skill. The armor was tested by being shot with a crossbow, and later with a gun. Thats right, no one bought their plate armor unless it had that telltale mark from a bullet.

    It wasn't until the end of the armor period that firearms could reliably penetrate plate armor.

    Armor became less popular because tactics, strategy and the economics of war changed. Missile weapons clobbered the poor horses lugging the armored European into battle. The Pike made the horse unreliable. Even the best armor has trouble withstanding a volley of early firearms up close. Plus, if you can field 1000 well-trained pikemen in half armor for the cost of a single heavy cavalryman, you stop using cavaly.

    Edited by - Boffo on November 26 2002 19:06:54
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