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  1. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 7:10am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah. Sad stuff.
  2. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 8:27am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Everything Hedge said about Tolkien is still bullshit. Hedge can't even post correctly, how can you believe a word he says.

    If you haven't actually read and absorbed the Silmarillion (one of the greatest pieces of fiction ever written that few can even understand with just one reading), you can't properly talk about Tolkien.

    If you base your critiques of Tolkien's universe on just the Hobbit, or just LOTR, or just the movies, GTFO of discussions on Tolkien because you are pontificating over a mere grain of sand.

    Why? Because if you charge that Tolkien's protagonists always meet happy ends, you'd be wrong. Tolkien's protagonists get beaten, tortured, and slaughtered throughout the history of Middle Earth.

    You want tragedy and drama?


    Sauron as Gorthaur the Cruel? Captures and tortures and kills main characters.

    Hurin? Chained to Thangorodrim, to be eaten by vultures. Loses a hand to escape.

    Later on, Hurin is enchanted and marries his sister, and both of them commit suicide when they find out. Tragic.


    Fingolfin vs. Morgoth? Morgoth crushes the Elf King with his foot.


    Feanor? Don't get me started, the entire story of Feanor, one of Tolkien's richest characters, is as Tragic as Tragic gets.

    LOTR (and of course the Hobbit) are only the happy footnotes at the end of thousands of years of bloody war between men, Elves, and Melkor's evil.

    And yes, since Melkor is a demigod, his Evil is pretty absolute.

    There, wrapped that up nicely.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 10/09/2012 8:46am at .
  3. slamdunc is online now
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    Extraordinarily Ordinary

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 8:38am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    If you base your critiques of Tolkien's universe on just the Hobbit, or just LOTR, or just the movies, GTFO of discussions on Tolkien because you are dwelling on a mere grain of sand.

    There, wrapped that up nicely.
    Hell, I had to re-read the post three times just to understand that. With my amoeba-level of understanding Tolkein, I'm lucky to have finished LOTR (I didn't even watch the movie). I am way more science than art, but I followed Hedge's logic to that degree. As for believing it---I see it as an opinion, not a definition.

  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 9:16am

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    Example of tragedy in Tolkien, in art.

    To those who have not read the Silmarillion, this particular matchup was eons in the making.

    The High King of the Noldor gets squashed under Morgoth's boot.

    A valiant but not so happy ending.

  5. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 9:31am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    I want my fantasy to be challenging, unpredictable and as free of cliches as possible. This is not hard to understand.
    Really, Hedge, since I know you are a fairly liberal and open-minded spirit, let me tell you you're wrong about Tolkien: Tolkien's whole legendarium is about the loss of identity and culture, about the idea that even when you win, you lose. That's why I still like to deal with his work, even though his prose is horrendous.

    I recommend the texts of a guy called Michael D. C. Drought as an introduction to actual Tolkien studies. Gives you an idea of where to start. I think he had a poem called "the tower in the west", or "the tower by the sea". Sums up his general idea pretty nicely.
  6. Tom .C is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 9:39am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Wait so you want your fantasy to be realistic?
    We must laugh and cry but not hurt or die
  7. RurikGreenwulf is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 10:01am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Late to the party, but:

    I can certainly see how a person could believe that Tolkien's work is nothing but a series of hackneyed brayings on the glorys of war, the evils of ugly people, and the goodness of being pretty...if their only exposure to it was sitting through the trailers for the Peter Jackson movie.

    Seriously? "War is Hell" is a theme in the bloody HOBBIT! Thorin Oakenshield's last words are him admitting to Bilbo, who spent most of the second half of the book trying to stop a conflict between the dwarves and the elf/human alliance, that the child of the kindly West understood the nature of war far better than the proud dwarven prince..scuse me, I have something in my eye. Something manly!

    And as for simple black and white morality...did the critics somehow miss Denethor, (who was badly mischaracterized in the Jackson version) Feanor and his sons, Boromir and Faramir, and bloody Thorin Oakenshield himself? All of the above are major characters, and as grey, grim and gritty as anyone who ever sprang from the fever dreams of Joe Abercrombie or George Martin.

    And yes, I do trust that Tolkien, who lived through the horrors of World War 1 trench warfare, and this little thing called the Blitz, conducted by this group you've probably heard of, the Luftwaffe, had a clearer understanding of the true face of the battle god and his kingdom, a field where a thousand corpses lie, than China, who served in...who lived through...well, I'm sure he read a lot of newspapers. Some might have even had PICTURES!

    HURR HURR, indeed, Hedge. I recommend you do some research on the War to End All Wars before you pooh pooh it. While it lacked the unambiguous EEEE-VIL of Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, and Stalin (Oh wait. That last one was on the 'good' side) it more than made up for it with chemical weapons, plagues, and massed bayonet charges at mine fields and machine gun nests. There's a reason that great paean to British pesimmism, Warhammer 40,000, stole so much of its schtick from that particular war.

    P.S.
    Dusty has neg repped all my posts about how elves must be purged from the holy lands of mankind with fire. I can only conclude that he is in fact one of those pointy earred tree huggers, and desperately needs an introduction to the source of the TRUE American values of growing beards, drinking beer, and hitting things with axes.
    For the Low King!
    For the grudges of our ancestors!
    For Rerox, Dumathoin, and Grimnir!
    YEAH

    Any one here plays Dwarf Fortress?

    "Slaves to Armok: God of Blood Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress (usually shortened to Dwarf Fortress) is a part roguelike, part city-building freeware video game set in a procedurally-generated high fantasy universe in which the player takes control of a group of dwarves and attempts to construct a successful and wealthy mountainhome. Along the way the player must face off with the dangers of their environment, invaders and sieges, vampires and other night creatures, and the occasional rampant megabeast, all while keeping their dwarves happy and their fortress alive. A second game mode, adventurer mode, places the player in the shoes of an adventurer as they wander the world and do battle with various creatures."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_Fortress

    ITS FREE

    http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 10:17am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Protagonist View Post
    Yeah. Sad stuff.
    I would boink Alura Danon after she gets all shiny.
  9. RurikGreenwulf is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 10:20am


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  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2012 10:29am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Protagonist View Post
    At first, it's kind of weird, but trust me, it will grow on you.
    Like gohnasiphelherplAIDS?

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