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  1. RurikGreenwulf is offline

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    ˇNo se preocupen !

    Su amigo Rurik les dará algunas clases gratis

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...anish-usat.htm
  2. hungryjoe is offline
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  3. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
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    Late to the party, but:

    I can certainly see how a person could believe that Tolkien's work is nothing but a series of hackneyed brayings on the glorys of war, the evils of ugly people, and the goodness of being pretty...if their only exposure to it was sitting through the trailers for the Peter Jackson movie.

    Seriously? "War is Hell" is a theme in the bloody HOBBIT! Thorin Oakenshield's last words are him admitting to Bilbo, who spent most of the second half of the book trying to stop a conflict between the dwarves and the elf/human alliance, that the child of the kindly West understood the nature of war far better than the proud dwarven prince..scuse me, I have something in my eye. Something manly!

    And as for simple black and white morality...did the critics somehow miss Denethor, (who was badly mischaracterized in the Jackson version) Feanor and his sons, Boromir and Faramir, and bloody Thorin Oakenshield himself? All of the above are major characters, and as grey, grim and gritty as anyone who ever sprang from the fever dreams of Joe Abercrombie or George Martin.

    And yes, I do trust that Tolkien, who lived through the horrors of World War 1 trench warfare, and this little thing called the Blitz, conducted by this group you've probably heard of, the Luftwaffe, had a clearer understanding of the true face of the battle god and his kingdom, a field where a thousand corpses lie, than China, who served in...who lived through...well, I'm sure he read a lot of newspapers. Some might have even had PICTURES!

    HURR HURR, indeed, Hedge. I recommend you do some research on the War to End All Wars before you pooh pooh it. While it lacked the unambiguous EEEE-VIL of Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, and Stalin (Oh wait. That last one was on the 'good' side) it more than made up for it with chemical weapons, plagues, and massed bayonet charges at mine fields and machine gun nests. There's a reason that great paean to British pesimmism, Warhammer 40,000, stole so much of its schtick from that particular war.

    P.S.
    Dusty has neg repped all my posts about how elves must be purged from the holy lands of mankind with fire. I can only conclude that he is in fact one of those pointy earred tree huggers, and desperately needs an introduction to the source of the TRUE American values of growing beards, drinking beer, and hitting things with axes.
    For the Low King!
    For the grudges of our ancestors!
    For Rerox, Dumathoin, and Grimnir!
  4. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2012 8:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Be careful of accusing Tolkien of cliches. When it comes to fantasy, he created so many of them.
    I'm aware and I said that. They're not tropes I particularly like but i'll acknowledge they were at least somewhat original when he wrote them. But a horde of identical High Fantasists have eagerly rimmed every centimeter that he wrote so lovingly in all their mass produced and disposable series since as to make browsing most fantasy sections the worst kindof cocktease. He's so pervasive that even opposition to him has become solidified, like the relief side of a fossil: chainsmoking, trenchcoat and sunglass [at night] wearing badasses and drooping, melodramatic vampires shooting each other in dry-ice fogged alleys.

    Why the **** not get it from Tolkien's mouth, and not the mouth of a writer who makes it his agenda to rail against the "evils" of Tolkien's social hierarchies...which is about as academic as attacking those in The Lion King.
    It's telling that the first thing you can find to support Tolkein with is a children's movie. However to take you at face value (showing your argument fails on multiple levels), one could easily do so. There are better children's and young adult books (movies are much farther between, requiring big budget studios who don't like to take storytelling risks). Mieville himself wrote one. Reeve's Mortal Engines is another.

    Note Tolkien's "almost venture to assert", became according to Mieville as "thereby making it an article of policy".

    Mieville: STFU. Your version would have had Sam and Frodo frying in lava, and that would have fucking sucked and you know it.


    Mieville's protagonists are not guaranteed success, which reintroduces tension into it. Tolkeinian fantasy is always triumphalist. It might require extraordinary sacrifice, but there's good and evil (strictly divided) in them and good will eventually always triumph. The Campbellian hero uses the sword of light to slay the ancient evil. Boooooriiiiiiiing.

    The hobbits all survive and return to the Shire and kick Saruman's ass out.
    That's eucatastrophe, baby.
    That's a fancy word for 'i'm too scared to read SF that challenges me'. It means I need triumphalism because i'm too much of a baby to appreciate a world that doesn't lay its secrets and ethics bare as an airbrushed ***** in vanilla porn.

    Fantasy is not meant to be pump-up music and you do it a disservice by using it that way.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  5. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2012 8:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Be careful of accusing Tolkien of cliches. When it comes to fantasy, he created so many of them.
    I'm aware and I said that. They're not tropes I particularly like but i'll acknowledge they were at least somewhat original when he wrote them. But a horde of identical High Fantasists have eagerly rimmed every centimeter that he wrote so lovingly in all their mass produced and disposable series since as to make browsing most fantasy sections the worst kindof cocktease. He's so pervasive that even opposition to him has become solidified, like the relief side of a fossil: chainsmoking, trenchcoat and sunglass [at night] wearing badasses and drooping, melodramatic vampires shooting each other in dry-ice fogged alleys.

    Why the **** not get it from Tolkien's mouth, and not the mouth of a writer who makes it his agenda to rail against the "evils" of Tolkien's social hierarchies...which is about as academic as attacking those in The Lion King.
    It's telling that the first thing you can find to support Tolkein with is a children's movie. However to take you at face value (showing your argument fails on multiple levels), one could easily do so. There are better children's and young adult books (movies are much farther between, requiring big budget studios who don't like to take storytelling risks). Mieville himself wrote one. Reeve's Mortal Engines is another.

    Note Tolkien's "almost venture to assert", became according to Mieville as "thereby making it an article of policy".

    Mieville: STFU. Your version would have had Sam and Frodo frying in lava, and that would have fucking sucked and you know it.


    Mieville's protagonists are not guaranteed success, which reintroduces tension into it. Tolkeinian fantasy is always triumphalist. It might require extraordinary sacrifice, but there's good and evil (strictly divided) in them and good will eventually always triumph. The Campbellian hero uses the sword of light to slay the ancient evil. Boooooriiiiiiiing.

    The hobbits all survive and return to the Shire and kick Saruman's ass out.
    That's eucatastrophe, baby.
    That's a fancy word for 'i'm too scared to read SF that challenges me'. It means I need triumphalism because i'm too much of a baby to appreciate a world that doesn't lay its secrets and ethics bare as an airbrushed ***** in vanilla porn.

    Fantasy is not meant to be pump-up music and you do it a disservice by using it that way.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  6. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2012 9:05pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Be careful of accusing Tolkien of cliches. When it comes to fantasy, he created so many of them.
    I'm aware and I said that. They're not tropes I particularly like but i'll acknowledge they were at least somewhat original when he wrote them. But a horde of identical High Fantasists have eagerly rimmed every centimeter that he wrote so lovingly in all their mass produced and disposable series since as to make browsing most fantasy sections the worst kindof cocktease. He's so pervasive that even opposition to him has become solidified, like the relief side of a fossil: chainsmoking, trenchcoat and sunglass [at night] wearing badasses and drooping, melodramatic vampires shooting each other in dry-ice fogged alleys.

    Why the **** not get it from Tolkien's mouth, and not the mouth of a writer who makes it his agenda to rail against the "evils" of Tolkien's social hierarchies...which is about as academic as attacking those in The Lion King.
    It's telling that the first thing you can find to support Tolkein with is a children's movie. However to take you at face value (showing your argument fails on multiple levels), one could easily do so. There are better children's and young adult books (movies are much farther between, requiring big budget studios who don't like to take storytelling risks). Mieville himself wrote one. Reeve's Mortal Engines is another.

    Note Tolkien's "almost venture to assert", became according to Mieville as "thereby making it an article of policy".

    Mieville: STFU. Your version would have had Sam and Frodo frying in lava, and that would have fucking sucked and you know it.


    Mieville's protagonists are not guaranteed success, which reintroduces tension into it. Tolkeinian fantasy is always triumphalist. It might require extraordinary sacrifice, but there's good and evil (strictly divided) in them and good will eventually always triumph. The Campbellian hero uses the sword of light to slay the ancient evil. Boooooriiiiiiiing.

    The hobbits all survive and return to the Shire and kick Saruman's ass out.
    That's eucatastrophe, baby.
    That's a fancy word for 'i'm too scared to read SF that challenges me'. It means I need triumphalism because i'm too much of a baby to appreciate a world that doesn't lay its secrets and ethics bare as an airbrushed ***** in vanilla porn.

    Fantasy is not meant to be pump-up music and you do it a disservice by using it that way.




    Quote Originally Posted by The Words Of The Prophet J-Dibbs
    But the 'consolation' of fairy-tales has another aspect than the imaginative satisfaction of ancient desires. Far more important is the Consolation of the Happy Ending. Almost I would venture to assert that all complete fairy-stories must have it.
    There, WR. Tolks sugarcoating it doesn't help that this appears to be what he truly believes.

    At least I would say that Tragedy is the true form of Drama, its highest function; but the opposite is true of Fairy-story. Since we do not appear to possess a word that expresses this opposite — I will call it Eucatastrophe. The eucatastrophic tale is the true form of fairy-tale, and its highest function.
    Notice that he can't concieve of fantasy that is also drama.

    The consolation of fairy-stories, the joy of the happy ending: or more correctly of the good catastrophe, the sudden joyous “turn” (for there is no true end to any fairy-tale): this joy, which is one of the things which fairy-stories can produce supremely well, is not essentially 'escapist', nor 'fugitive'. In its fairy-tale—or otherworld—setting, it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on to recur.
    For all the pagan imagery, this is a profoundly New Testament sentiment. JRRT has set himself up as the Father and his heros as the Son with this statement, granting the reader Grace through faith.

    It does not deny the existence of dyscatastrophe, of sorrow and failure: the possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; it denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and in so far is evangelium, giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief.
    'Beyond the walls of the world' and yet he won't call it escapist! Brother Windward has never spoken so eloquently.

    (I read that as 'Evangelion' btw which is mostly the opposite of what JRRT wants and fulfilled a similar role to mecha shows as Dark Fantasy did in relation to the earlier, triumphalist, super sentai/tokusatsu derived mecha shows)

    It is the mark of a good fairy-story, of the higher or more complete kind, that however wild its events, however fantastic or terrible the adventures, it can give to child or man that hears it, when the “turn” comes, a catch of the breath, a beat and lifting of the heart, near to (or indeed accompanied by) tears, as keen as that given by any form of literary art, and having a peculiar quality."
    In only this I agree with him. However JRRT is so limited that he can only envision this quality being brought about by triumph, and only at the end of the novel. It can also be done by sadness, fear, lust, hatred, etc. Fantasy is not meant to be a morality tale.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  7. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2012 9:15pm

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    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mieville's protagonists are not guaranteed success, which reintroduces tension into it. Tolkeinian fantasy is always triumphalist. It might require extraordinary sacrifice, but there's good and evil (strictly divided) in them and good will eventually always triumph. The Campbellian hero uses the sword of light to slay the ancient evil. Boooooriiiiiiiing.
    Let met translate, for my fellow slow readers:
    I have never read a book by JRR Tolkien because anything that goes against my Hobbesian/Machiavellian world view makes me break out in hives.

    Vince shall now prove his assertions.

    List of Tolkien antagonists and how they died:
    Smaug = killed by the Black Arrow, by someone who has at best a meaty supporting role

    Goblin King = death via eagle

    Saruman = stabbed to death with a knife by his lackey

    Sauron = goes !poof! when his ring o' evil gets dropped in lava

    Gollum = goes sizzle! when he falls into lava with said ring o'evil

    The Witch King of Angmar = is, indeed, killed with a sword. By Eowyn the shield maiden, who requires a great deal of squinting to fit into the mold of Campbellian hero.

    Read first, then criticize. Your chances of saying mind numbingly stupid things will decrease.




    That's a fancy word for 'i'm too scared to read SF that challenges me'. It means I need triumphalism because i'm too much of a baby to appreciate a world that doesn't lay its secrets and ethics bare as an airbrushed ***** in vanilla porn.
    Fantasy is not meant to be pump-up music and you do it a disservice by using it that way.
    Thank you for dictating your opinion of what fantasy should be to us dull witted peons, from your lofty balcony overlooking the village green. Now, please stop making idiotic remarks about J.R.R. and go read some of your beloved books where the viewpoint character dies of cholera after spending three chapters robbing corpses and raping prostitutes, I recommend Joe Abercrombie's The First Law trilogy, Best Served Cold, or The Heroes. Which are not actually that bad, once you get past the realization that the plot can be predicted 200 pages in advance via "What would be the most teeth grindingly ironic way to subvert the standard fantasy cliches"
    Last edited by Vince Tortelli; 10/08/2012 9:20pm at .
  8. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2012 10:21pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For some reason I can't delete the duplicate posts.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  9. Tom .C is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2012 10:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    For some reason I can't delete the duplicate posts.
    Sometimes you need to tell Vince twice and that damn WRabbit will read it twice anyway.
  10. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2012 10:31pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Let met translate, for my fellow slow readers:
    I have never read a book by JRR Tolkien because anything that goes against my Hobbesian/Machiavellian world view makes me break out in hives.
    You just told a communist that his view of the world is Hobbesian. Think about that for a second.

    Vince shall now prove his assertions.

    (list of ways in which Tolkein villains die)
    You missed the point with a verve and focus normally reserved for getting the point and confused the genre Tolkein founded with his books themselves. Arguing like the most stereotypical nerd, you disputed that his cartoonishly evil villains die a variety of different deaths! Seriously, you're Comic Book Store Guy here.

    You mail me turds and then point out the many different varieties of packaging.

    My dispute isn't with whatever yawn-inducing details of how High Fantasy Big Bads die, but with a genre of work in which there are always Heroes and Big Bads, with each representing diametrically opposed, Manichean poles.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children

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