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  1. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 9:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    I second that emotion. My platform will be "keep up the great work lads, have some candies" and then I will give everyone candy. Which will still make for less danger to USians than the ham fisted imperialism we've been doing in the region so far.
    Appeasement? I label you a NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN! HOO AH! CRYING EAGLES AND APPLE PIE FOR EVERYONE!

    Slighty related to above blatantly bigoted British bashing:
    Why did we listen to these people and coup the Shah back into office? Was the old regime Soviet backed (aka another case of "Throw out the Communist murdering lunatic who bows to the USSR and replace him with a fascist lunatic that bows to the USA")
    OR
    Did it truly all come down to nationalization of oil industries and England's arguement of "No fair, you lot can't do that, we already nationalized those industries for ourselves back in the day! Oh, dash it all. Time to see if those bloody colonials can be of any use in this bushwah."
    Last edited by Vince Tortelli; 9/16/2012 9:48pm at .
  2. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 10:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Shoot me for quoting Wikipedia.
    Use your move however you like, but in your case you chose to continue to hedge a GOP fantasy, that Ronald Reagan deserves any credit whatsoever for the treaty Carter's outgoing administration helped architect.

    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    The 1980 election was decided on 4 November. Regan was president elect.
    Reagan was not involved in the hostage negotiation, except that during his campaign against Carter, Reagan's position was to agree to the hostage takers' demands 100%.

    Go look it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    We can disagree on whether this was 'relevant'.
    No I can quote you the White House Historical Association's official history, which credits Carter (like history textbooks do).

    http://www.whitehousehistory.org/whh...ns-carter.html
  3. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 10:28pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    Reagan's rhetoric before being in office and the POSSIBILITY of what he might do and his administration's ACTIONS after the election are two different strategic concerns of the IRANIANS. Your political lens has you looking at the world as if US actions alone determines history. This lens is shared by partisans of both sides in this country. Hence, IRAN's DECISION is reduced to a simplistic trembling in fear.
    That statement is pretty stupid. You are peddling Republican Kool-Aid too.

    Here's why:

    Reagan campaigned on capitulating to the "terrorists'" demands 100%, to secure the release of the hostages.

    Simplistic trembling of fear?

    Iran?

    No, they only feared Reagan after Carter's administration got the hostages freed, because one of the stipulations of Algiers had been no spying or messing with Iranian affairs, which Reagan almost immediately set out to do once in office.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 9/16/2012 10:35pm at .
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 10:35pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    I definitely have a lens, mostly historical because of my interests and technical because if my job and education.
    Your "lens" is broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    The history thing means I grab a lot of bias from the historians and whatever I am currently reading affects my outlook. Technical is a big bias because the world is not a problem to be solved.
    You seem to read a lot of garbage. Maybe that's just my "lens" talking.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    I think you are right about the Iranians. The whole hostage thing was risky on many levels. Regardless of who was president it could have escalated to full war.
    Thankfully Carter helped diffuse the hostage crisis before Ronald began spying on and attempting to overview the Iranian government (again).

    It was, of course, the one thing his administration got right, even if it went into effect after he got fired.
  5. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 10:46pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    That statement is pretty stupid. You are peddling Republican Kool-Aid too.

    Here's why:

    Reagan campaigned on capitulating to the "terrorists'" demands 100%, to secure the release of the hostages.

    Simplistic trembling of fear?

    Iran?

    No, they only feared Reagan after Carter's administration got the hostages freed, because one of the stipulations of Algiers had been no spying or messing with Iranian affairs, which Reagan almost immediately set out to do once in office.
    Simplistic trembling is my description of the other sides' description of what happened. Not your side. Yes I compared you to right wing ideologues.

    Either way. My points include 1) Reagans actions in office could not affect the Iranians actions before because they could not know the future! 2) it was not just Carter's or Reagan's decisions that mattered; the Iranians also had a significant part in the outcome.
  6. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 10:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    Simplistic trembling is my description of the other sides' description of what happened. Not your side. Yes I compared you to right wing ideologues.
    No. I don't have a "side" since I'm an independent. I vote both ways, and Mitt Romney hasn't earned my vote, and won't, if the GOP keeps publicly lying about history to win votes and especially if they try to compare Romney to Reagan.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    Either way. My points include 1) Reagans actions in office could not affect the Iranians actions before because they could not know the future! 2) it was not just Carter's or Reagan's decisions that mattered; the Iranians also had a significant part in the outcome.
    So did Algeria's, and I like how you're telling me this, when I posted the actual Accords.
  7. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 11:01pm

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    Counterpoint:
    Ronald Reagan didn't run the economy into the bedrock below the basement, then blame everything on a "spiritual malaise".

    Not to irrationally despise Carter, I respect that he was the first Southern President since 1865 and he's done a lot of good via charity work and such since he was out of office, and I do mean A LOT, but his Presidency also saw a LOT of things go so pear shaped they wouldn't have been out of place in a tree with a partridge perching on it.

    Although I will award extra points for his fighting off a Georgia Attack Rabbit with his bare hands.
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 11:04pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Counterpoint:
    Ronald Reagan didn't run the economy into the bedrock below the basement, then blame everything on a "spiritual malaise".
    No I think George Bush Jr. did that, and now the GOP blames it all on poor people who wanted homes. Or something like that.

    At least Reagan knew when he needed to raise taxes.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 9/16/2012 11:07pm at .
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 11:05pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Counterpoint:
    Ronald Reagan didn't run the economy into the bedrock below the basement, then blame everything on a "spiritual malaise"..
    Damn Bush Jr. Damn him straight to hell.
  10. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2012 11:11pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Today, the GOP and Tea Party would call this guy a socialist because he raised taxes to build roads.

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