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  1. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2012 10:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    Crony Capitalism is not Capitalism (see Military-Industrial Complex)
    There were military beneficiaries of the stimulus funds?

    Obama's personal friends benefited from stimulus funds?

    No no you are thinking Bush/Cheney/Haliburton.

    Obama gave money to Ford, GM, and Chrysler. You know, companies that form the backbone of America.

    I'm OK with that "Industrial Complex".
  2. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2012 11:14pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    There were military beneficiaries of the stimulus funds?

    Obama's personal friends benefited from stimulus funds?

    No no you are thinking Bush/Cheney/Haliburton.

    Obama gave money to Ford, GM, and Chrysler. You know, companies that form the backbone of America.

    I'm OK with that "Industrial Complex".
    GW Bush and Cheney did not invent the material industrial complex. That is just an example of crony capitalism. Yes, Obama's friends and allies did benefit from handling of the GM bail out. I am not an absolutist on this. Government intervention was probably warranted but the bankruptcy process should have been used more to get an equitable settlement. Also, like the banks too big to fail should equal to big to exist. And not everyone had friends in high places.

    http://www.delphisalariedretirees.org/delphi/
  3. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2012 11:18pm

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    I like how the Republicans decry President Obama for not cleaning up the huge pit of distress that 8 years of G.B.W and his advisers put this great country in (aided and enabled by a largely complicit congress, and a timid ball-less 4th estate not calling bullshit on blatant lies, in exchange for access - however demeaning) .

    Hey that black looking fella hasn't fixed it fast enough. 30 straight months of job gains isn't progress. He's the worst (read: darkest) pursident evahhh! He's probably a Muslim too, cos everyone knows Jesus was white. He ended one of our pet wars, before it even had a chance to pay for its self.

    Apology tour - can't name one apology.

    Sympathizes with terrorists (Took out Bin Laden, drones, all kinds of right wing **** he's done).

    Doesn't understand what it's like to be American (??? grew up poor, became constitutional scholar, Senator and then POTUS - **** the haters, he is the American Dream personified).

    Not a uniting figure (stonewalled by a House that explicitly set it's agenda at thwarting anything he attempted in order to make him a one termer - even to the point of rejecting things in their former agenda).

    The Republicans have been framing the debate like experts for many years, driving discourse in this country to the right since Clinton won, but it's falling apart now. Enough is enough. The press is starting to grow balls, and Romney exemplifies the shallowness of the right wing agenda. It's about money for the rich, and pandering to divisions to cow people into rejecting their own interests in voting.

    The Republican platform should be this long.


    • Women aren't to be trusted with their own bodies.
    • Legislators belong in your bedroom.
    • People choose to be gay.
    • The less poor people that vote the better, same for minorities and students.
    • George W Bush's failures are hereby melded to Obama
    • p.s. GWB never existed, we never supported him, honest!
    • Under a Romney administration jet liners are all to equipped with roll down windows, to allow oxygen to get in, in case of a fire.
  4. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2012 11:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, the machine tool capability of the United States is a national security issue, as well as an issue regarding vehicles, and the supply chain of parts for said vehicles, and how many people are supported by that industry in total.
  5. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2012 12:12am


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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    Also, the machine tool capability of the United States is a national security issue, as well as an issue regarding vehicles, and the supply chain of parts for said vehicles, and how many people are supported by that industry in total.
    The current capacity of the auto industry is not needed to support the military. The number of people supported argument sounds like it could justify anything like the interstate commerce clause does already.
  6. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/25/2012 7:13am

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    GW Bush and Cheney did not invent the material industrial complex.
    You meant military industrial right?

    No one said they invented it. But they did pour the US treasury into it so long that it helped undermine the stability of our economy. Had they read their Sun Tzu they'd have known overfunding foreign war operations has broken the back of more empires than anything else.

    And by some accounts, Cheney even profited personally from some of those "no bid contracts".

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Yes, Obama's friends and allies did benefit from handling of the GM bail out.
    And autoworkers and voters and taxpayers and...I remember when the GOP tried to convince me Obama would "Seize" the auto industry and "not give it back", you know, like the Maoist he is supposed to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    the bankruptcy process should have been used more to get an equitable settlement.
    Had that happened, a million more would have gone unemployed as the auto industry "settled" their debts. A lot of the money that went to Big Auto (and other stimulus recipients) was simply to meet employee payroll so they didn't have to fire thousands of hard working, blue-collar Detroit workers.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 9/25/2012 7:33am at .
  7. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2012 7:54am


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    I am not Vince!

    So what steps should be taken to allow for future business failure without endangering US economy? Should GM be broken up? Or permanent protected company?
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/25/2012 9:12am

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    So what steps should be taken to allow for future business failure without endangering US economy?
    Government and business in America are inextricably linked. The phenomenon of governments stepping in for failing businesses, especially ones critical to the national interest, is as old as time. It would (and did) happen in a Republican presidency or a Democratic one, because no president can afford to be that president.

    The role of the President is to work with Congress to enact policies that place safeguards at key points in the public/private sector framework (which is not two separate things but one big organic thing).

    Romney is not interested in anything the Democrats have to say about anything. That may not be his desired position....just the one he has to carry the banner for now that he's been nominated.

    Obama has at least attempted to work with the GOP on at least a few issues, not to mention he did squeak Obamacare through Congress with GOP votes...they'll likely call it his "signature achievement" in the history books.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 9/25/2012 9:17am at .
  9. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/25/2012 11:11am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    So, when us righty tighties label Obama a Socialist and equate the DNC to the followers of Lenin and Marx we're deranged fringe extremists who are probably going to get everyone killed.

    But when y'all label all Romney and all Republicans as right wing nutcase warmongers, yeah!

    Something seems off here, but the specifics escape me.
    I think you're viewing this as a false dichotomy where either these guys are right or these guys are right, which excludes the possibility that they're both wrong.
  10. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2012 11:45am

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    I am not Vince!
    We are the ever changing reflection in the mirror of Trollshido. Flame posts are our weapon, and we are their masters. Flame posts are our prison, and we are their slaves. We are the one who stands against many, till all are one. We are the Alph...Vince Tortelli. We are Vince Tortelli. That's what we meant. KEN SHAMROCK DOMINATUS!

    @ W. Rabbit
    My problem with the bail outs is that they created what I'm going to refer to as an "immoral incentive". Several large corporations made some bone headed decisions, that blew big wads of their money. The government responded by giving them more big wads of taxpayer money. Given these events, how careful do you suppose said corporations will be about the possibility of blowing big wads of money via bone headed decisions in the future?

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