Violence vs free speech

**Devil** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 8:19am

Originally Posted by simonifrius

1. NATO is not America.

2. While I think there is relevance to the idea of cultural sensitivity (AKA, don't make fun of Mohammed, especially around Muslims), that doesn't excuse this.

3. America doesn't have to answer for its citizens, but it should stand up for its embassies.

4. I've met Muslims. They were very nice, very careful not to offend me, very hospitable, and hated the activities that drove them from their homelands. (Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, and Nigeria.) The only Muslim I've met that expressed distaste in the US was from Pakistan.

5. I attended a Muslim-led convention about how Muslims can clean up their image with the world. First, you must understand that this sort of thing attracts people with strong political feelings, and second you must understand that people from the third world haven't been taught that some of the things their people have done are horrible (like Americans have). However, the one speaker who supported separation of mosque and state in Muslim countries was largely panned by the audience and was cut off by the emcee. Someone from the audience suggested that if Muslims wanted peace, they should publicly denounce terrorist attacks. The same speaker passionately agreed, but the others wouldn't comment.

6. This issue isn't as simple as "Islam is evil", or the simpler "Religion is evil." There are Hindu terrorists, Buddhist terrorists, Atheist terrorists, and Christian terrorists as well. What these countries lack is a check-and-balance for their religion. It's actually similar to Catholicism in the Middle Ages. Ultimately, with Christianity, it was very much misunderstood by its own followers, and the uneducated were being exploited. (Honestly, it's not too different today.) I think this is more like that than "Muslims are evil". It's easy, especially for Americans, to forget how high we live, and that not everyone else has gotten there yet.

TLDR: The world's messed up.

No, there is no merit to the idea of religious sensitivity. Religion is silly and should be lampooned at every opportunity so religious people will learn how silly they are. Also, **** Mohammed. Drawing Mohammed cartoons is my favorite pastime. Well second favorite, after making fun of Mohammed on the internet.

I'm thrilled you managed to meet some nice Muslims. Other members of this board have met Muslims who were shooting at them. I've met some Muslims who were nice to me, too. They'd probably still want to cut my balls off if I sketched a picture of their prophet though.

The discussion about whether they know better is irrelevant. I don't give a **** why they are the way they are. Just like I don't give a **** if the guy trying to rape my wife was molested as a child. For whatever the reason, the threat exists and should be dealt with aggressively.

And it's laughable that you would use crusade era Catholicism to justify the extreme nature of Islam. You're right. There are a lot of similarities. The correct solution in either situation would have been to crush the religious zealotry.

I won't say any religion is evil. I'm not sure I even believe in the concepts of good and evil. What every religion is though, is an organized way of ignoring logic and science. This makes them poisonous and threatens the advancement of mankind.

**Devil** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 8:48am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19586143

Hey look! More tolerant Muslims being tolerant.

This is how they behave BECAUSE OF A FILM. These people can't be reasoned with. They will only be satisfied if things are done their way. They will only be satisfied when the rest of the world capitulates to their religious fanaticism.

Can you argue that we're just as wrong as they are? I suppose you could, although I would disagree. Either way, does it really matter at this point? We have a certain way of life that we love and want to preserve. They have a certain way of life that they demand be everyone's way of life. Those two interests can't coincide. The whys don't matter anymore. Our choices are simple - win or lose.

**Bneterasedmynam** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 8:49am

Originally Posted by Devil

No, there is no merit to the idea of religious sensitivity. Religion is silly and should be lampooned at every opportunity so religious people will learn how silly they are. Also, **** Mohammed. Drawing Mohammed cartoons is my favorite pastime. Well second favorite, after making fun of Mohammed on the internet.

I'm thrilled you managed to meet some nice Muslims. Other members of this board have met Muslims who were shooting at them. I've met some Muslims who were nice to me, too. They'd probably still want to cut my balls off if I sketched a picture of their prophet though.

The discussion about whether they know better is irrelevant. I don't give a **** why they are the way they are. Just like I don't give a **** if the guy trying to rape my wife was molested as a child. For whatever the reason, the threat exists and should be dealt with aggressively.

And it's laughable that you would use crusade era Catholicism to justify the extreme nature of Islam. You're right. There are a lot of similarities. The correct solution in either situation would have been to crush the religious zealotry.

I won't say any religion is evil. I'm not sure I even believe in the concepts of good and evil. What every religion is though, is an organized way of ignoring logic and science. This makes them poisonous and threatens the advancement of mankind.

I wish I could rep this post more than once, so I will just say +10. You really hit the nail on the head with this one.

**Colin** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 9:02am

Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam

Yes there is a double standard and you can blame the hippie politicaly correct fuckers for it.

I'd be more inclined to indict those who wish to protect their own religious freedom. By and large, 'hippies' are Atheist, and dislike all religions equally.

By extension - you should look to your own (USA) religious bullshit. Clamping down on Islam would mean clamping down on all religions - and it's the far right who are religious, not the far left.

**ChenPengFi** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 9:38am

What an odd dichotomy we've constructed.

My mom who lives in NYC, has been thrown out of a Halal market for speaking Danish to her sister,
"What language are you speaking? Danish? You guys hate Muslims, you should leave now..."
and a Kosher establishment for
"You're not Jewish, are you? What are you doing in here then? You should get out."

She has yet to be thrown out of a Chik-Fil-A (to be fair i don't think she eats there), but there's still time i guess.

**Bneterasedmynam** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 9:46am

Originally Posted by Colin

I'd be more inclined to indict those who wish to protect their own religious freedom. By and large, 'hippies' are Atheist, and dislike all religions equally.

By extension - you should look to your own (USA) religious bullshit. Clamping down on Islam would mean clamping down on all religions - and it's the far right who are religious, not the far left.

Oh I'm not at all excluding our zealots here from that equation. As far as blaming the hippies, I was refering more to the PC notion of respecting beliefs regardless of their intent.

**Colin** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 9:58am

Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam

Oh I'm not at all excluding our zealots here from that equation. As far as blaming the hippies, I was refering more to the PC notion of respecting beliefs regardless of their intent.

Well, I have to say that Devil said it best when he said:

Originally Posted by Devil

I won't say any religion is evil. I'm not sure I even believe in the concepts of good and evil. What every religion is though, is an organized way of ignoring logic and science. This makes them poisonous and threatens the advancement of mankind.

When he's right he's right.

**Bneterasedmynam** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 10:03am

Originally Posted by ChenPengFi

What an odd dichotomy we've constructed.

My mom who lives in NYC, has been thrown out of a Halal market for speaking Danish to her sister,
"What language are you speaking? Danish? You guys hate Muslims, you should leave now..."
and a Kosher establishment for
"You're not Jewish, are you? What are you doing in here then? You should get out."

She has yet to be thrown out of a Chik-Fil-A (to be fair i don't think she eats there), but there's still time i guess.

You lie, bigotry only applies to Americans, everyone else in the world is racially harmonious.

**mike321** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 10:05am

Originally Posted by Colin

I'd be more inclined to indict those who wish to protect their own religious freedom. By and large, 'hippies' are Atheist, and dislike all religions equally.

By extension - you should look to your own (USA) religious bullshit. Clamping down on Islam would mean clamping down on all religions - and it's the far right who are religious, not the far left.

I think the point he was trying to make is that people who normally oppose religious extremism are giving a pass to these groups. Don't know if I agree.

**Devil** · Posted On: 9/13/2012 10:10am

Originally Posted by Colin

I'd be more inclined to indict those who wish to protect their own religious freedom. By and large, 'hippies' are Atheist, and dislike all religions equally.

By extension - you should look to your own (USA) religious bullshit. Clamping down on Islam would mean clamping down on all religions - and it's the far right who are religious, not the far left.

This is actually where I think the discussion gets interesting. Let's talk about Christianity and liberalism/conservatism. I'm of the opinion that individuals and societies should make decisions based on logic and science. Decision making should be free of religious influence.

Here's the problem. In western society, you don't get that from either side. Christianity is so deeply ingrained that it shapes the belief systems of people on both sides - even those who outwardly reject religion in all forms.

Christianity is a religion of the weak. It was created by the weak. Turn the other cheek, reject the need for worldy riches, sacrifice for your fellow man, etc. All basic tenets of early Christianity. Ironically, these tenets attracted other weak people, made it seem righteous to essentially be weak, and ultimately empowered the weak through sheer numbers.

So, for a couple thousand years Christianity has dominated our society. You're right - conservatives are more likely to embrace and acknowledge Christianity's influence in their lives at this point. But in my opinion, it's the hippie liberals who actually operate under the values of Christianity to a greater extent at this point.

They may be atheists, but their sense of right and wrong has been passed down to them through the generations and it all revolves around Christian values. This is why I have such a problem with liberalism. They piss me off for the same reasons religious zealots piss me off. They're motivated by emotion and lifetimes of being told what's right and wrong based on Christian ideals. They don't operate based on logic.

Survival in this world depends on a proper balance of intelligence and aggression. You can't be so aggressive that you position yourself to face more turmoil than you can overcome. But you also can't intellectualize things to the point that you fail to act with aggression when it's in your best interest to do so.