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  1. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 1:18pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post

    I can't you are 1% er.
  2. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 2:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    I can't you are 1% er.
    Those damn wealthy monks, always making it rain tax free!
  3. Eliada is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 3:29pm


     Style: Boxing, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know, we wouldn't have to deal with Muslims burning down American embassies crying "death to America" if we had no presence in their country. I'm not victim-blaming - I'm just saying there's a very simple solution.

    These people aren't worth it. They don't want us there and they're killing those we send to help them. Carrying on is meaningless.
  4. mike321 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 3:35pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliada View Post
    You know, we wouldn't have to deal with Muslims burning down American embassies crying "death to America" if we had no presence in their country. I'm not victim-blaming - I'm just saying there's a very simple solution.

    These people aren't worth it. They don't want us there and they're killing those we send to help them. Carrying on is meaningless.
    Many of "these people" are worth it. Even if a very large minority completely supported terrorism, that's a lot of non terrorist supporters. Morocco was the first country to recognize the US, lots of people in the Mideast have put themselves in extreme danger to support democracy and human righs.
  5. Eliada is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 4:19pm


     Style: Boxing, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    Many of "these people" are worth it. Even if a very large minority completely supported terrorism, that's a lot of non terrorist supporters. Morocco was the first country to recognize the US, lots of people in the Mideast have put themselves in extreme danger to support democracy and human righs.
    It is my personal opinion that the religious and cultural climate of the Middle East is, by and large, too dangerous to sustain contact with. Islam is no more dangerous than Christianity or Judaism, doctrine-wise, but Middle Eastern Muslims don't have a consumerist culture to water down their beliefs with. The highly religious atmosphere creates extremists at a much more rapid rate and therefore poses a much higher risk. While I will acknowledge that certainly there are people in these countries (speaking specifically of those rioting over the video) that have more liberal, educated, non-violent views, clearly demonstrated by the "anti-protests" of Muslims bearing signs condemning the violence, it's evident that the anti-radical minority are smaller than the radical faction. Of this faction, relatively few perpetrate actual violence, but most think it deserved. See the protests.

    More importantly, most don't want us there, and that strips us of all right to be there. I have a very liberal Muslim friend who visits Israel and surrounding nations every year or so to visit family. He says the United States' involvement is completely unwanted by the vast majority of Middle Eastern inhabitants (if anyone here is from that area and would like to contest his testimony of current feelings, I would be glad to hear your perspective!). The "silent majority," according to him, is far from pleased with US involvement. We're in a country that doesn't want us there, upholding free speech for a people that condemns it. It doesn't make sense to me that we should still even be present. We can't make war on the country since only a minority actually perpetrates violence against us. Attacking people for believing offensive things - like that the Ambassador or the US deserves to perish - would make us no better than the crazies that stormed the Embassy. At the same time, we can't make peace. The religious/cultural climate, wed to long-standing enmity between the Middle East and the United States (to be fair, that's our fault - the CIA funded and armed many unpopular revolutions and dictatorships during the Cold War to secure US oil interests. Most Americans have forgotten, but Middle Easterners haven't) makes it impossible. The time is not yet right.

    It seems much simpler to me that we withdraw from countries that don't want us and simply loosen our immigration laws to permit amnesty for Middle Eastern victims. Granted, many countries might smile on such a thing, but it strikes me as cheaper (in money and lives) to simply remove those unhappy with their current state rather than try to force the cultural and political atmosphere to be more humane.

    My heart goes out to the good people of the Middle East, but only to the good. May we all find some measure of peace in these violent times.
    Last edited by Eliada; 9/14/2012 4:43pm at .
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 4:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliada View Post
    Islam is no more dangerous than Christianity or Judaism, doctrine-wise, but Middle Eastern Muslims don't have a consumerist culture to water down their beliefs with.
    I think that consumerism has been creeping up on them from all sides and will continue to do so.
  7. Eliada is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 4:37pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I think that consumerism has been creeping up on them from all sides and will continue to do so.
    It's only a matter of time, but the time is not now. In ten, fifteen, twenty years, maybe we can make things happen for the better, but it won't happen until the desire for shiny things overpowers the desire to adhere to your great-great-great-great-grandfather's religion.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 4:41pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliada View Post
    but it won't happen until the desire for shiny things overpowers the desire to adhere to your great-great-great-great grandfather's religion.
    Land, shiny things and religion have caused wars for centuries.
  9. Mister is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 4:51pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    So does yours mate. Step off your high horse. I believe it was an Egyptian General who once said that when the Egyptian Army entered Israel it would be covered in blood, not sand.



    Genocide? Fucking exaggerate much? The ovens in Israel are for baking cookies.

    Also, the Arabs were all for Judenfrei and allied with the Nazis. So yeah, they sucked as well then, right?



    No, its directly relevant. It shows your lack of knowledge of history. The whole reason Israel grabbed more land was to make borders that were defensible. That would not have been necessary had its neighbors not been so interested in its destruction.



    Again, with the high horse. No one's government is moral.



    That's because they mostly live in Israel. Look up Mizrahi Jews.

    Listen, I'm not an Israeli. I'm a agnostic American. I have a lot of friends who were in Palestinian Solidarity movements.

    The problem is, I started to read. And what I read was troubling. Its not the Israelis were heroes or anything like that... because they weren't. It was just... the Palestinians were just as bad as the Israelis. I just don't feel like I can support either side, because neither can really admit any culpability.

    A prime historical example:

    The wailing wall.

    Prior to Jerusalem being retaken how many Jews were allowed to visit this religious monument (this would have been while it was Transjordan): 0. A pretty dickhead move, right?

    So, once the Israeli Army took Jerusalem, what did they do? Razed a centuries old Palestinian neighborhood so that they would have room for bar mitzvahs and ****. Annnnnnd another dickhead move.

    And that's the history of this fight in a nutshell. Both sides just Rochambeau'ing each other.
    Mate I already said everyone is guilty and an asshole.

    No high horse.

    Perhaps you missed the post where I criticized my country and its inhabitants.

    I suggest you look back.

    Egyptian government? Yeah right.

    I was gonna argue semantics but I changed my mind.

    Let's just leave it at: I agree, both sides are wrong.

    Hell if there even are "sides".

    The line is blurry I don't know who is what.

    Everyone sucks.
    Last edited by Mister; 9/14/2012 5:02pm at .
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2012 5:02pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Today is sarcasm failure day. You tend to miss it when you ride in on that horse....that's high.....before it tripped over that soap box.

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