Violence vs free speech

**Beatdown Richie** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 5:41am

Originally Posted by CNagy

Also **** people who kick hornet nests knowing that they aren't the ones going to get stung. Yes, it's barbaric to get so bent out of shape about a movie that you end up rioting and killing people, but this isn't a brand new fucking discovery.
...
**** that guy. I'm all for "I disagree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it," except when you are talking **** for the explicit purpose of incitement. Seriously, **** that guy.

This.

Also: the US Embassy in Egypt had every reason to "deplore" the trolling efforts of this (previously) anonymous asshat. They're the ones who have the raging mob in their front yard. Even if what the guy did is protected by his constitution and laws (that's for the lawyers to decide), it was still an asshole move.

Now, in the long run, of course it's an uncomfortable position to have a number of countries that go ballistic whenever someone, from their perspective, commits blasphemy. It's just not obvious what we can do about that - any attempt by Western countries to induce a more tolerant interpretation of Islam is likely to be counterproductive.

**Styygens** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 7:03am

Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli

Here's my question: Why is it, after that whole kerfluffle in Iran during the Carter years, plus the widescale happy funtime shindigs going on in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, etc., that the U.S embassies in the Middle East, which are always the ones that got stormed and set on fire during these things, aren't put togather like the results of out of control building contest between a toddler Perturabo and Dorn that consumed the entire Segmentum Obscura's supply of Tinker Toys and Legos for three years in a row?

I get that we're hurting for money, but keey-ripes! How many times does this have to happen before the costs of constructing a new embassy and training new personnel outweigh those of concrete, razor wire, search lights, etc?

An interesting question. Some of them are put together like fortresses:

The US Emabssy in Baghdad (under construction at the time):

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007...ilding_a_fort/

Fast forward to 2007, and the headlines are focused on the new American embassy in Baghdad, the biggest, most fortified, and most expensive embassy in the world (see the construction photo above). It will also have — most likely– the best setback.

The embassy is designed by the architectural firm Berger Devine Yaeger, whose other projects include ambitious mini-communities like Schlitterbahn Vacation Village and the First Baptist Church in Tyler, Texas (the "master plan includes a sports pavilion, multi-purpose building, an auditorium, an education building, a Christian Arts & Media Center, a prayer garden with a small chapel, campgrounds, playgrounds and numerous recreational facilities.")

But here's the problem... Diplomacy is the art of "warm and fuzzy" and "Please, please, please... I want you to like me!!!" Building a fortress of solitude that bristles with Inferno Guns and Mega Bolters runs counter to this image.

In reality, American embassies are increasingly cut off from those very countries in which the U.S. is supposed to be fostering better relations, and worse, create caricatures of the detached diplomat more interested in tennis than work. Even in Doha, a relative safe haven from terrorism, the embassy is many meters off the main road, and to enter, you pass through a security checkpoint staffed by Filipinos. Depending on your business at the embassy, you then go through another layer of security to enter the building. Even for embassy employees, entering the building was time consuming. For foreigners, it could be a good chunk of the afternoon.

The Iraq embassy is the largest and was custom designed and built, but most US embassies in potentially hostile environments are built to provide defense in depth wherever possible.

Your question is closely related to another one I keep hearing: "Why don't the Marines 'brush them' off the walls?" Where "brush" really means blast them with sustained machine gun fire until the crowd retreats.

I'm sure you can already see the problem with this -- it would be a bloodbath and counter to long-term US interests in the region. And that might be exactly what the instigators of these riots want. How do you think that will play in the media -- here, or abroad? It might come to that yet; I sure hope it doesn't.

**Styygens** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 7:17am

Originally Posted by Hedgehogey

Muslim kills a government official of a foreign power that killed dozens of civilians with airstrikes in his country: "Islam is 7th century bullshit."

I'm sure you believe you stand with all the oppressed peoples of the world.

I'm pretty sure you'll be surprised to learn they still think of you as one of the opressors and will either treat you like one, or use you as a patsy.

Enjoy your trolling...

**scipio** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 7:42am

Looks like it's not just the US embassies in the Middle East which are getting hassled, also the British and Germans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19602177

Quite why the German's are coping it I can't quite get....

**Devil** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 8:00am

Originally Posted by simonifrius

Actually, screw the high road on this one.

Who am I to tell "Christians to the core" that they're wrong when they do stuff like this? I'm a Christian. What they do is so far off of what Jesus taught that they ignore it completely. When people misuse the Bible and Jesus to mess up the world, it's my job to call them out on it, and if it's in my power, to stop them. Same logic as martial artists stepping up to stop Bullshido.

I do wish that the quiet, peace-loving Muslims I know would take a public stand against such things. But then, there is this:

http://imgur.com/a/tlCyI

Religious babble. You might as well be a snake handler.

**tgace** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 8:42am

So what's the suggested solution? We protect speech unless someone does something violent in response to it? Or we don't protect speech based on the definition of "offensive" ?

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**Tom .C** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 9:01am

Originally Posted by tgace

So what's the suggested solution? We protect speech unless someone does something violent in response to it? Or we don't protect speech based on the definition of "offensive" ?

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I say that we shoud send all of our senators and congressmen to Afcrackistan armed only with our constitution and a spork, and let them solve everything for us. It's not like they're doing anything else.

**erezb** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 9:09am

Originally Posted by Mister

*Cough* I shared enough.

Everyone's crying about an ambassador, which is a great example of human compassion and which is an innocent life that I'm sad for too, nobody should die at all.

Meanwhile my Palestinian mates Bassam and Ahmed whom by the way play Judo with me and are very skilled fighters that I have often made wisecracks at calling them "Dirty Palestinians" and "Rotten Easterners" all in good spirits are driven out of their homes all the way to Egypt because of Israeli war crimes.

And there's a THOUSAND others like them. Not a single worldly tear.

**** this I'm going to live in a cave from now on.

All I need is a sparring partner.

Can't fucking have even that because I broke a vertebra in my back and can't fight for a while.

Can I have a gym in a cave?

No tear was shed for them? they have their own refugee organization called unrra. Besides its your government that told them to leave israel while you guys just sweep us to the sea. Luckily for us it didn't happen though you tried 3 times. You say they are refugees? Why don't the Arab countries give them citizenships and equal rights like eu and usa? to perpetuate the problem? Our war crimes? that is rich coming from a guy that just described truthfully how Arabs behave. Another point, if they are refugees than what are we? Do you know how many Arabic jews were driven from arab countries including Egypt? By the way you blame the Arabic nature for those actions and not islam, well than why don’t Arabic jews or Arabic Christians behave in the same manner?

**erezb** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 9:26am

Originally Posted by simonifrius

I have a buddy who just went to Palestine. I understand that both sides are doing bad things at times. That said, innocent Palestinians are being harrassed, assaulted, and killed daily. America sides with Israel, but doesn't hold them to account for the evil they are doing. And yes, it's because of religious reasons.

Here's a story that broke my heart. A Palestinian woman had a baby. In Palestine. The baby needed a doctor. Israel was enforcing a curfue at the time. She decided to ask the soldiers if she could get a doctor for her baby. They shot at her, so she went home. Later that night, the child got worse, so she went out again, and was shot at again.

The baby lived. Today he is 16. He's about two and a half feet tall, has no use of his arms and legs, is nonverbal, and is deeply loved.

There was a Christian pastor who came to speak at a church in America some time ago, to tell about the situation on the ground in Israel. After the service, a man came up to him, shook his hand and said, "I'm glad there are people like you out there. Those Palestinians are rotten." The man pulled out some money to give to the pastor.
"Actually," said the pastor, "I am Palestinian."
The man put his money away and walked on.

This is a common attitude I see towards Palestinians.

wow you are so full of ****. even the last part with the pastor was just weird. Did the man listen to his speech and agreed that Palestinians are rotten? They don't die daily, and this bs with shooting at the women...common... did they miss? did they just shoot in the air? Really? **** you with your lies and bullshit. this crap is borderline crazy. Tell me this (if you pretend to not be prejudice.) What happens in the south of israel, let me give you a hint it involves missiles and rockets. Let’s be frank, we don’t treat them well, and they don’t treat us. Your notion that soldiers can just shoot in the air without it being reported in the pro Palestinians news (our left wing controlled news), without reports and jail time for the soldiers than you are really misinformed.
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**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 9/14/2012 9:36am

Originally Posted by Styygens

I totally agree that something very weird is going on here. And I can't shake the feeling that whatever it is

Anniversary of 9/11. Embassy attacks. Armed incursions. Chaos.

These are all the hallmarks of Al Qaeda or their affiliates. It's not about "Innocence of Muslims" and your average Middle East riot over Muhammad, otherwise we would not be sending two destroyers and a platoon of Marines.

Originally Posted by Styygens

But here's the problem... Diplomacy is the art of "warm and fuzzy" and "Please, please, please... I want you to like me!!!" Building a fortress of solitude that bristles with Inferno Guns and Mega Bolters runs counter to this image..

Diplomacy is the art of hugs and handshakes and slipping handgrenades into back pockets, while your spies take everyone's picture and secretly exfiltrate data about the host country through your embassy.

The people who hit the embassy knew full well that CIA operations moved through it, in addition to consular functions.