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  1. Eliada is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2012 12:01am


     Style: Boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    More boxing questions!

    Long time, no see. I posted not long ago about proper hook form (thank you for all those who contributed to the thread - I've been working on applying your pointers. And I'm still trying to make a decent video for your perusal), and seeing as you were all so kind as to answer, I thought I might put a few more questions to the Bullshido community:

    The double jab. My trainers praise it as an excellent offensive tactic and escape tool. Unfortunately, they are somewhat divided on whether or not the hand should retract fully back to the guard before the second jab. It seems to me that I get more power from a fully-retracted second jab, but it also feels slower, which limits its capability to distract the opponent while escaping to the outside. It also seems to detract from its worth as an answer to the counter-jab. Should I retract the hand before doubling the jab? Would feinting with the right between left hands restore its worth as an anti-counter-jab? Or is it possible to generate power while only halfway retracting (and I just need to stfu and drill it 'til it clicks)?

    Shoulders. I've been taught that total body relaxation is important to hand speed and power. I've been giving looseness extra attention in my training, trying to build good habits. I've run into a small hiccup: I don't know how the shoulders fit into the looseness biz. I understand that when you punch, especially when you jab, your shoulders are supposed to cover your jaw. Only recently have I discovered that I habitually hold my shoulders high. I think it gives me a sense of security - even with my hands tucked tightly at my cheekbones, it feels good to have an extra "wall" of protection. Do high shoulders detract from looseness? Do they drain stamina as a form of tension? Bear with me if it's a stupid question. I wouldn't be asking if I could get a hold of a sparring partner to experiment with. I live in New Orleans, and Hurricane Isaac has kinda fucked up my sparring schedule.

    Uppercuts. They're dangerous stuff, but they're difficult to pull off. Try as I might, I just can't seem to execute them against my partners in sparring! It might just be because my form is poor (it sure feels awkward... is that normal? Seems like an awkward punch by nature), but even if my opponent isn't tucking his chin like he's supposed to, even if his guard is open wide enough to shoot one through, I find them hard to execute. When I'm "squared up" (so to speak, since the boxing guard is naturally slanted) with an opponent, I find that both hands are too far away from the center line where my punch should go (between two too-far-separated hands and up into the chin). Should I quickly side-step to line up my hands? Should I slant the punches rather than trying to place them in a straight line? What are your strategies for setting up the uppercut?

    If you need clarification, don't hesitate to ask. I might be able to post pics or videos (the former more likely than the latter) to elucidate.

    Thanks!
  2. JohnKenner is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2012 12:23am


     Style: Boxing, Judo, Kenpo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, a lot of good questions here.

    So, there are my own observations, so YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliada View Post
    The double jab. [...] Unfortunately, they are somewhat divided on whether or not the hand should retract fully back to the guard before the second jab. [...]Should I retract the hand before doubling the jab? Would feinting with the right between left hands restore its worth as an anti-counter-jab? Or is it possible to generate power while only halfway retracting (and I just need to stfu and drill it 'til it clicks)?
    Offensively, I work the double and triple jab often (especially if I have a guy who doesn't know angles on retreat). The power from the second and third jabs comes from the act of moving forward, and I try to time landing the shot as my front foot lands.

    Defensively, I also use the triple jab and double jab, again trying to land the shot as I land my front foot (in this case the power comes more from me being stable, and him moving into my hand).

    Do I retract fully? No, typically around 3/4.

    Do high shoulders detract from looseness? Do they drain stamina as a form of tension?
    Its like you've been talking to my trainers. They harp on me for this all the time. The answer is: Yes and Yes. Good punching form along with keeping your chin down will keep your chin covered while punching. Keep your shoulders low and loose.

    Uppercuts. They're dangerous stuff, but they're difficult to pull off. Try as I might, I just can't seem to execute them against my partners in sparring! [...] What are your strategies for setting up the uppercut?
    The biggest problem for me was range. I had to work on them a lot. Now I seem to land uppercuts all the time. A combination I used that helped me land them more often: Jab/R Hook (B)/R Uppercut (H)/L Hook (H or B). Pretty much a bread and butter move for Tyson, but the body hooks help me be in the right range, and covered the "load" movement when you would drop your body to load the uppercut.
  3. MarJoe is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2012 1:41am


     Style: Western Boxing

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Double Jab

    In the ring their are many varibles,first are your handsfaster than his? Have you have landed jabs that made his head snap backward? If you are faster go to full guard then fire the jab again. Think speed not power, as John pointed to,keep moving, changing the angle and distance. Drop your head and shoulders down. You can watch his elbows and hips with your head and looking up with your eyes.With a little practice, you tell by elbow movement which hand he is going to throw. same with the hips,which way he going to move. As John stated about the uppercut learning the distance for landing the uppercut. I sense that you have no confident in the uppercut. Try thinking of it as a hook thrown from a different angle. Practice these things on the heavy bag and while sparring till they become automatic. Good Luck in the Ring . Joe
  4. Eliada is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2012 2:37am


     Style: Boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    Do I retract fully? No, typically around 3/4.
    Awesome. I'll do some shadow-boxing as soon as I'm done typing this response!

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    Its like you've been talking to my trainers. They harp on me for this all the time. The answer is: Yes and Yes. Good punching form along with keeping your chin down will keep your chin covered while punching. Keep your shoulders low and loose.
    How far should I tuck my elbows in? When I held my shoulders up, I kept my elbows away from my chest because it felt better, but now that I'm focusing on looseness, I feel that it would be more efficient to tuck them in far enough to touch my body. They seem to rest better there (less energy consumption), and they feel nice and "loaded" as a pleasant bonus (being already at an angle to explode out). I've consulted the internet, and while tucking in the elbows seems to be the verbal consensus, pictures and words don't always match up.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    The biggest problem for me was range. I had to work on them a lot. Now I seem to land uppercuts all the time. A combination I used that helped me land them more often: Jab/R Hook (B)/R Uppercut (H)/L Hook (H or B). Pretty much a bread and butter move for Tyson, but the body hooks help me be in the right range, and covered the "load" movement when you would drop your body to load the uppercut.
    Range and ring generalship are definitely things I need to work on. I confess I'm a bit flat-footed - it's one of my biggest training points at present. I'm trying to incorporate more movement into my shadow-boxing and bag work (one of the older fighters recommended that whenever I finish combinations on the bag I should duck out at a diagonal angle, throwing jabs on the way out. Sound like a good drill?), but it's hard. Even with all the stupid amounts of roadwork I do. I'll work it out eventually, I'm sure, if I keep at it.

    Right hook to right uppercut? How would you make that weight shift? Your fist (assuming that you landed the hook) would be outside of the opponent's left hand. Doesn't an uppercut need to start on the inside? I could see Jab/R Hook (B)/L Uppercut - the shift would bring your right hand over your temple and your weight on your left foot, just where they'd need to be - but a right uppercut? Am I missing something obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarJoe View Post
    In the ring their are many varibles,first are your handsfaster than his? Have you have landed jabs that made his head snap backward? If you are faster go to full guard then fire the jab again. Think speed not power, as John pointed to,keep moving, changing the angle and distance.
    My hands are usually faster, but I also like to use my jab as a spear. I like to make a statement with it, preferably as a counter, focusing on speed and letting my step-in and my opponent's weight shift provide the power. I might be overthinking it, but I feel a strong, step-in counter-jab gives me a psychological advantage, especially if I can grasp the timing quickly and well enough to execute it and repeat it before my opponent changes tactics - which, so far, I have been able to do. Is it possible to really sock 'im with the tight jab while constantly on the move? Or should I focus more on using the jab as a distraction/point target?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarJoe View Post
    Drop your head and shoulders down. You can watch his elbows and hips with your head and looking up with your eyes.With a little practice, you tell by elbow movement which hand he is going to throw. same with the hips,which way he going to move.
    I'm going to cut my (very) long hair short for the purpose of better visibility. When I get in the ring, the headgear keeps it back, but when I'm training and building habits, I tend to keep my eyes low subconsciously as not to inflame them with my own profuse sweat. It built a really bad habit. The aforementioned older fighter really chewed me out (with his fists) when he noticed it. Thankfully he pointed it out before any significant span of time passed; I've only been boxing for three months, so I'm sure I can weed the habit out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarJoe View Post
    As John stated about the uppercut learning the distance for landing the uppercut. I sense that you have no confident in the uppercut. Try thinking of it as a hook thrown from a different angle. Practice these things on the heavy bag and while sparring till they become automatic. Good Luck in the Ring . Joe
    I have zero faith in my uppercut, which is why I try them whenever I see the opportunity in sparring. I do five rounds on the heavy bag every gym day, and I spend two of those rounds specifically on slipping uppercuts into my combinations. I have the drive, I just want to make sure I'm not doing anything fundamentally wrong. Practice doesn't make perfect - perfect practice makes perfect. Imperfect practice breeds bad habits and gets you ktfo.

    Do you think I should spend three out of those five rounds on the uppercut bag instead? Or maybe more? Or maybe I should do five rounds on the heavy bag and a separate five rounds on the uppercut bag?

    Thanks for all your answers! I'm getting a lot out of this discussion.
  5. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/07/2012 2:54am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have no idea how to answer your last training questions. My bag work is pretty basic - though I do jab followed by spinning elbow, which is allowed in MMA, if not much elsewhere but sparring karate or for self-defense.

    Damn, I wish my ex-Muay Thai coach would answer this! But I do know that after a lifetime of being told to relax the shoulders, at age 62 I almost got it! Seriously, remaining loose and relaxed is really hard to do, I find breathing consciously helps. And watching Ali videos... The ideal is to be loose and moving, then explode.

    Regarding your shoulder issues, I was taught to keep them loose, but when doing a jab tuck the chin behind the shoulder to help protect the chin. Keeping them high like you say is your habit must be keeping them tense/tight and that makes one stiff and slow. To go naturally from tense to loose and hard to fluid takes tons of training and keeping aware of yourself while training and sparring is a key.
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 9/07/2012 3:01am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  6. Eliada is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2012 3:10am


     Style: Boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    Damn, I wish my ex-Muay Thai coach would answer this! But I do know that after a lifetime of being told to relax the shoulders, at age 62 I almost got it! Seriously, remaining loose and relaxed is really hard to do, I find breathing consciously helps. And watching Ali videos... The ideal is to be loose and moving, then explode.
    I've heard from multiple sources that the fist, though closed, mustn't even be clenched until the moment of impact - thus is the speed of looseness wedded to the power of fully-exposed knuckles. I've found this to be true, when I can pull it off, but I'm a nub and it could just be self-delusion. Has anyone else found this to be true?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarJoe View Post
    Regarding your shoulder issues, I was taught to keep them loose, but when doing a jab tuck the chin behind the shoulder to help protect the chin. Keeping them high like you say is your habit must be keeping them tense/tight and that makes one stiff and slow. To go naturally from tense to loose takes tons of training and keeping aware of yourself while training and sparring is a key.
    Which is why I'm asking - I certainly don't want to reinforce any behaviors that will come back to bite me later. There sure is a lot to remember, though: the angle of the stance, staying on the balls of the feet, tucking the elbows, exhaling sharply as you strike, snapping from loose to tense and back, all while paying attention to your opponent. I guess I'll just have to train at slow speeds, reviewing every step, until it becomes more natural. I've already made good habits of covering my chin upon striking and mechanically returning to full guard. I'll just have to apply the rest of it more slowly.
  7. JohnKenner is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2012 11:19am


     Style: Boxing, Judo, Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliada View Post
    How far should I tuck my elbows in? [...] They seem to rest better there (less energy consumption), and they feel nice and "loaded" as a pleasant bonus (being already at an angle to explode out).
    You absolutely want your elbows in when the guy is in range to fire body shots. Its what protects your liver (and when you do get hit there, you'll miss the dizzy flash knockout feeling).

    For my body, with my fireplug build, I have to work to keep my elbows in... so I only do it when I need to guard, otherwise they're a bit out. So, if you can do it all the time, then... ok. But I would experiment, see where you feel loose and fast... but when stuff comes close make sure you know, "bring my elbows in."

    one of the older fighters recommended that whenever I finish combinations on the bag I should duck out at a diagonal angle, throwing jabs on the way out.
    QFT. Listen to that guy. Make your money, get out, and make sure he can't follow you.

    Right hook to right uppercut? How would you make that weight shift? Your fist (assuming that you landed the hook) would be outside of the opponent's left hand. Doesn't an uppercut need to start on the inside?
    Have you started working doubling (or evening tripling) your lead hook? Watch videos of Chavez Jr. Have you worked on Jab/L Hook/Cross? All the same weight shift. Throw one hand, reset, throw the same hand. This is a pure Tyson move, so you can see how he does the shift in the videos.

    You see, what gives the uppercut away for a lot of newbs IMHO, is the load. A proper power uppercut involves you dropping your weight and lifting into the punch. This combination hides the uppercut in two ways (and this is why Tyson's trainers were geniuses):
    (1) The weight drop is hidden by lowering yourself to properly attack the body when you R Hook. Remember, you don't punch down, you lower your platform and punch level at the body. The body shot has effectively hidden that.

    (2)As you retract and reset your base from the hook, your left shoulder will come back forward, and most people will read "L Hook to body" this will cause him to drop his elbow and cover up on his right side, leaving you a clear and open path to the uppercut.

    As you practice more, you'll understand you don't always alternate arms when punching, because it will hide the second punch. For instance, I love Jab/L Hook/ Cross... because I can load the left hook after I retract the jab, and everyone thinks "R Cross." Play with it in front of a mirror.

    I have been able to do. Is it possible to really sock 'im with the tight jab while constantly on the move? Or should I focus more on using the jab as a distraction/point target?
    If you have been able to do this, then you should continue to. But... I personally, *love* people who try to counter jab me consistently. It allows me to work slips, and bob and weave. My favorite is to catch the jab with my right, small parry, R Cross, L Hook, R Cross. I have used that to the effect where people won't throw a jab (thank you Pat Miletich).

    The point is, you've got a bread and butter counter, which is good. More importantly, you've learned how to read and adapt to timing, which is even better. Now, don't rest, add more counters, so your opponent can't read you.

    Do you think I should spend three out of those five rounds on the uppercut bag instead? Or maybe more? Or maybe I should do five rounds on the heavy bag and a separate five rounds on the uppercut bag?
    No and no. The uppercut is desert. Your Jabs, crosses, and hooks are your meat and potatoes. Train accordingly. Make sure to mix it up (Even lead with a snappy uppercut here and there). But don't overtrain it - you'll concentrate on getting it in the ring way too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarJoe View Post
    You can watch his elbows and hips with your head and looking up with your eyes.With a little practice, you tell by elbow movement which hand he is going to throw. same with the hips,which way he going to move.
    QFT. My emphasis added. MarJoe is pointing out what the great defensive masters - Pernell Whittaker et al - do so well. Something to definitely keep in the back of your head.
  8. Eliada is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2012 1:47pm


     Style: Boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    You see, what gives the uppercut away for a lot of newbs IMHO, is the load. A proper power uppercut involves you dropping your weight and lifting into the punch. This combination hides the uppercut in two ways (and this is why Tyson's trainers were geniuses):
    (1) The weight drop is hidden by lowering yourself to properly attack the body when you R Hook. Remember, you don't punch down, you lower your platform and punch level at the body. The body shot has effectively hidden that.

    (2)As you retract and reset your base from the hook, your left shoulder will come back forward, and most people will read "L Hook to body" this will cause him to drop his elbow and cover up on his right side, leaving you a clear and open path to the uppercut.
    OH! I was having trouble grasping how to throw the uppercut immediately from the hook position (right shoulder forward). That makes so much more sense. Ooooh, that's tricky. I like it. I wonder if it would fix the "alignment" problem of my hands being outside of the "strike zone."

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    As you practice more, you'll understand you don't always alternate arms when punching, because it will hide the second punch. For instance, I love Jab/L Hook/ Cross... because I can load the left hook after I retract the jab, and everyone thinks "R Cross." Play with it in front of a mirror.
    I knew it was better to double- or triple-up hands occasionally, but I never thought of it like that. I'll be sure to practice in the mirror when I train tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    If you have been able to do this, then you should continue to. But... I personally, *love* people who try to counter jab me consistently. It allows me to work slips, and bob and weave. My favorite is to catch the jab with my right, small parry, R Cross, L Hook, R Cross. I have used that to the effect where people won't throw a jab (thank you Pat Miletich).
    Do you parry down? I've seen some people parry across, re-angling the punch as to expose the left side of the opponent's body. Is either parry motion supposed to subtract power from your initial cross? My trainer and I worked on this very tactic and I found that my counter-cross felt pretty limp. Then again, the opponent's weight would add power to the strike. Do I just need to practice until my form picks up? I don't feel like a counter-cross should feel weaker than a counter jab, and it does.

    Thanks for all of your answers! Sorry for continually introducing questions besides the point - the more you answer, the more questions I seem to have.
    Last edited by Eliada; 9/07/2012 2:06pm at .
  9. MarJoe is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2012 4:49am


     Style: Western Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When the jab is thrown is as I have been traught and teach. your shoulder natually comes forward protecting your lowered chin. still loose and easy just natural movement. Also, with the shoulder coming forward this add more lenght to your jab. Joe
  10. MarJoe is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2012 5:36am


     Style: Western Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Clenched Fist

    Try parring 1 rnd with your fists clenched, how tired are your arms? again 1 rnd with the fists loose until contact. Which feels better ? Joe
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