Bujinkan Instructors and other styles...

**family karate** · Posted On: 8/28/2012 11:06pm

i'm a newbie here and have been advised to make some post to gets some points up so i can post some photos and the like. so i have something to ask about.

i have seen that there is a lot of bashing going on around here about different styles, and i see people painting the whole organization with the same brush. if i mention GKR, i will see the fight that will go on here. if i mention traditional martial art against MMA. well i don't want to even go there to see the aftermath..

so i will ask about something i know a little bit about myself.

why does everyone bash the Bujinakn..

i know there a large organisation, and that there is a lot of (high) ranking instructors that are just twats, but there is also a lot of other instructors who keep quiet, and even i would not want to meet them in a dark alley at night.. they are very good.

i see that people have problems with bujinkan's classic straight punch... from this x-kans will jump up about there style and traditional's will go on about it not being effective and the like, and the x-kans would be in trouble against a good karate-ka or kickboxer.

so my question is. what do traditional martial artist's think about Bujinkan instructors that have cross trained, and can apply both or multiple styles to there training.

i have meet many an x-kan instructor who like me held black belts and above in other styles before they even started Bujinkan.

i can understand the problem that TMA would have with the straight punch, and standing still waiting to be thrown.. but what about if the instructor can also see the benefit of it, and understand that its only a starting point to work from and practise.

now before people start going on about there is no sparring so its not real. i train (& teach) in Shotokan Karate, so i spar several times a week, and i also train in Bjj and grapple there as well, and i still think that Bujinkan has some great benefits in the system

i also agree just like in any style or organisation. there are instructors that give that style a bad rep.. i myself have been criticized from high ranking x-kans sensei's about my training original karate and other training, and told that it is no good,
also i have had some x-kans sensei's practise with me to get better at defence against a Karate-ka or the like.

so what do you think about people who train in Bujinkan, as well as other ( traditional ) martial art styles..

thanks to all. mathew

Family Karate Centre

***battlefields*** · Posted On: 8/28/2012 11:24pm

It's kind of a rambling post, there, Mathew.

For starters, you cross train and you spar in other martial arts. If you spar hard then you are testing what you know in a fully resisting environment. No problemo.

Nobody has a problem with people who cross train in various arts. As you mentioned, the Booj hierarchy DOES have people against the idea. We ask why that is, why is it that they would be afraid to test the skills they teach? The most likely reason is because they either know it won't work, or are afraid they won't work.

You say that you see application of Booj in grappling and Shotokan. Cool. I see application of ballet regarding flexibility in Muay Thai. Does it mean that ballet is something that I would train in order to get better at Muay Thai?

No. The answer is no.

**ashkelon** · Posted On: 8/29/2012 1:30am

this type of post comes often, I came here myself as a bujinkan practitioner.
you should post this type of stuff in the newbie forum.
then from the top:
- too deadly to spar, which means no stress testing
- sloppy technique, compare BBT throws to judo for example
- a lot of esoteric crap (depends on the dojo)
- meaningless drills which somehow, someday will lead to a higher understanding of combat
- no effective striking, throwing, groundwork and the stand-up grappling sucks balls compared to judo, sambo, any stress tested style.
- very dodgy lineage and historical claims, this is even widely accepted in the bujinkan
- cult-like behaviour

hmmm what did I miss?

Oh yeah, ninjers get a lot of flack due to all the ninjaness and that they're smug assholes running around in pyjamas and that's just the right target for all the nasty motherfuckers around here. Also, many, many members have extensive experience in the bujinkan and fled.

You'll be fine here if you can deal with that. Also, try a real grappling style, you'll immediately see/feel the difference.

BTW it's not about traditional ma, BBT is much less traditional than say Muay Thai, which has excellent reputation.

**JohnKenner** · Posted On: 8/29/2012 1:31am

Okay for those who might think this is TL;DR.... the summary is this: battlefields is the correct.

Originally Posted by family karate

i have seen that there is a lot of bashing going on around here about different styles [...]
if i mention traditional martial art against MMA. well i don't want to even go there to see the aftermath..

Negative sir. There are plenty of highly respected traditional martial arts on these boards. They all have one thing in common - they train in alive manner, against resisting opponents. The reason why MMA is for the most part respected on these boards is the same, because of its nature, it is trained in an alive manner.

why does everyone bash the Bujinakn..

See above.

so my question is. what do traditional martial artist's think about Bujinkan instructors that have cross trained, and can apply both or multiple styles to there training.

Well I think two things: That it is good that some in the organization still can have open minds. And I would wonder, how much of bujinkan's curriculum actually works when pressure tested (sparring with hard contact continuously, or grappling)?

i can understand the problem that TMA would have with the straight punch, and standing still waiting to be thrown.. but what about if the instructor can also see the benefit of it, and understand that its only a starting point to work from and practise.

But why learn it at all? No one you'll face in a self defense situation will throw it, and learning to throw a punch like that is pretty foolish - it builds muscle memory around something you should never throw. Why not throw jabs, crosses, and hooks?

now before people start going on about there is no sparring so its not real. i train (& teach) in Shotokan Karate, so i spar several times a week, and i also train in Bjj and grapple there as well, and i still think that Bujinkan has some great benefits in the system

Sorry, but I do think that Booj is worthless because they don't spar hard. How is a student going to learn how to fight if they don't fight?

On the other hand, your training may be fine. You seem to have an open mind, and look to fill holes in your game.

My last thought is a question for you to ponder Mathew: Based on your pressure testing, how much of the Booj stuff works... and with that result in mind, do you consider your training expenditure worthwhile from a self defense standpoint?

Do you think your investment in learning Booj resulted in a return of solid fighting skills on par with your training in BJJ?

I'm interested. I have my own thoughts on a moving from a non-alive training manner to an alive one. A bit of an essay, really. Titled: "I should have done Judo"

***battlefields*** · Posted On: 8/29/2012 1:43am

Originally Posted by JohnKenner

A bit of an essay, really. Titled: "I should have done Judo"

I did a similar essay about my journey in martial arts when I was young, but it was short, consisted entirely of the one concise sentence, "I should have done Judo".

**BJMills** · Posted On: 8/29/2012 1:54am

I 2nd JohnKenner's post. I would really like to know what BBT techniques you have pulled off while sparring. Video would be ideal but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

The problem is a significant amount of training seems to revolve around 1) wrist locks- which aren't very high percentage techniques, and 2) applying locks or throws to an extended punch which is just about never going to happen.

So in general people who do a lot of sparring see that kind of thing and can't help but call bullshit.

**family karate** · Posted On: 8/29/2012 6:04am

im sorry i thought that i did post this in the newbie section. im sorry im still learning around this site. also if you look at my name its family karate so im teaching karate and mma. im not defending or attacking bujinkan, i was just asking for some opinions, as i have said i have had some run in's myself being (open) minded, and still training in other styles. in one booj school, we also trained in karate kicks and attacks, and had to defend against that. when i started judo and bjj, i picked them both up quite easily due to my experience with booj. just had some stuff to fix up due to the mistakes. also when i have trained in other (japanese) ju jutsu schools, i found that nearly everything in them i have learnt from the booj. due to this fact, i have come (in my own opinion) to 3 things about my booj training. that most of it is ju jutsu training ( but not all ), and i have always been told it is both ninjutsu and ju jutsu. 2nd, it has helped me on a few occasions in self defence, and 3rd, there is some principles from it that i use for all of my training. i wont go into full details but some are strike high low principle. break balance or create space then strike ( kuzushi ), when in doubt bash( that's my own principle ) ie hit an opening, and if nothing else is open hit it again and again and create an opening. and a few others. i will agree that it is very hard to show 100% booj training against a karate-ka in a sparring match, but when i spar with my students and peers, and we open it up, then i throw in a few booj moves (using the above principals) and generally catch them by surprise. but im only talking about my experience. i do agree that if some one in the booj is not taught basic front kick round house, jab cross hook and the like, then they will have a hard time against these, but in saying that if they have had good training, then they should give it back. all i can really say about my booj training, that i learnt the most from it, is the ability to adapt and change with any situation. and for that i am grateful. but then im open minded to some degree...

sorry i forgot. also in sparring i hit the the soft areas and weak points as i have been taught, and this is what generally opens up an area for me to attack and finish...

but then maybe im not 100% booj, so i dont know......

**family karate** · Posted On: 8/29/2012 6:13am

dam and i still cant post a link yet lol

**slamdunc** · Posted On: 8/29/2012 7:01am

Ninja, Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, and Unicorns all have one thing in common; think about it.

***battlefields*** · Posted On: 8/29/2012 7:45am

Your final sentence sums it up, there, Mathew. You're not 100% booj. You've learnt how to apply techniques through pressure testing them against resisting opponents in other martial arts. I can say that my Taekwondo helped me in Muay Thai, but I have to unlearn certain habits, which is similar to what you suggested about your applying booj to ju jutsu. It would have been much better for me to have just done Muay Thai. Same with Hapkido. I learnt wrist and armlocks, which gave me an understanding of how applying force to a joint can cause pain. In that knowledge I can say it "helped" my Jiu Jitsu, but in reality it would've been significantly better if I had just done BJJ because I wouldn't have to unlearn all the bullshit methodology that was taught.