muay thai vs. Muay boran

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 8/20/2005 8:12pm

On another forum there's been a bit of a debate over martial arts vs. combat sports (common debate, I know). One of the arguments brought up was that muay boran, being the more traditional and kung fu like, with it's one hundred additional moves, is the more deadly predecessor to muay thai. It was stated that these 100 additional moves were taken out because they are "too deadly for the ring". My thoughts on this are that muay thai (at least until fairly recently) consisted of very dangerous strikes including downward spikey elbows to the top of the head and knees to the face. It would be my GUESS that the 100 extra moves were removed simply to make muay thai training more efficient, and that the additional moves have survived over time largely due to traditionalist sentiments of the thai people.

Any thoughts, or info on this subject? I really don't know much about the history or evolution of muay thai, so if anyone could provide some resources on the subject I'd be really interested to read. Thanks.

**Kistrael** · Posted On: 8/20/2005 9:16pm

Smells a bit like too deadly, but what I've read were mostly about knees to face. Basically more like an unrestricted Muay Thai. But you'll be extremely lucky to find a Muay Boran school, even in Thailand,

**alex** · Posted On: 8/20/2005 9:32pm

theres a reason they stopped teaching flying spinnng headbutts. it dont work. and last time i checked elbow spikes are still legal

**Kengou** · Posted On: 8/20/2005 9:52pm

Ong-Bak style Mauy Thai with TKD-style flying spinning knee strikes and elbows? Awesome. And I thought MT was immune to the bullshido of "t00 d34dly"

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 8/20/2005 10:01pm

oh ok. Some of the guys I've trained with told me the ultra deadly downward spikey elbows (as apposed to elbowing horizontally) and knees to the face were no longer in practice even in thailand. Guess he was mistaken.

**danno** · Posted On: 8/20/2005 11:07pm

i saw a fight in aus a few months ago where someone lept in the air and came down with an elbow, cutting open the top of his opponents head.

**Thaiboxerken** · Posted On: 8/20/2005 11:12pm

Muay Boran changed it's look when competition started. What is seen a Muay Thai in Thailand reflects what works withing the limitted rules set. Much of the Muay Boran stuff is not "too deadly" for the ring, but rather "too stupid" for the ring. Just take a look at San Da and San Shou, which are competitive platforms for Kung Fu systems as another example of a martial art becoming refined through the test of competition.

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 8/21/2005 12:03am

Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken

Muay Boran changed it's look when competition started. What is seen a Muay Thai in Thailand reflects what works withing the limitted rules set. Much of the Muay Boran stuff is not "too deadly" for the ring, but rather "too stupid" for the ring. Just take a look at San Da and San Shou, which are competitive platforms for Kung Fu systems as another example of a martial art becoming refined through the test of competition.

This was really my take on it. I don't really know enough about muay boran to really know how deadly it is, but just from the fact that people call it "too deadly for the ring" makes me shake my head.

**alex** · Posted On: 8/21/2005 6:15am

consideing how loose the rules in MT are, especially in thailand, the idea of moves that are too deadly for the ring is pretty laughable. if it were actually feasible to jump up and do a double knee strike then theres nothing stopping people doing it.

i saw a fight in aus a few months ago where someone lept in the air and came down with an elbow, cutting open the top of his opponents head.

one of our guys won his ticket to the WMTC finals with that (was in NZ not aussie though- and he didnt cut him, got a knockdown)

**Khun Kao** · Posted On: 8/21/2005 7:51pm

I'm afraid I don't have all the information to do this justice, but one thing everyone should bear in mind is that Muay Boran is simply the modern interpretation of traditional Muay Thai. It sounds like I'm merely arguing semantics, but to make a VERY LONG story short:

Muay Boran =/= Pre-ring Muay Thai

Yes, Muay Boran teaches a lot of the old, pre-ring Muay Thai techniques, but it is not truly representative of the real Thai martial arts that the modern sport of Muay Thai evolved from. If I understand what I've read correctly, the modern sport of Muay Thai evolved from a wide number of Thai bare-knuckle fighting arts. There wasn't just one martial art, they were quite a few. Muay Boran is simply a modern interpretation of these older martial arts, and is not really "true" to any one.

I'm not saying that Muay Boran is bad. I personally like it seems to me that it is an effort to preserve the older, pre-ring fighting techniques and styles, but I also believe its important for people to realize that what they are learning is kind of a 'homegenized' version of the old stuff.

Otherwise, I agree with what Thaiboxerken said. Sure, there are some moves from the old stuff that are no longer allowed for reasons of safety, but the greater majority of the old moves are perfectly legal still. They simply do not make sense for use in the ring sport. Basically, why waste valuable training time on learning not only the techniques themselves, but the whole surrounding strategy for something that you are likely to never have the opportunity to use? Many of these old moves would require pretty specific circumstances to be used at all, much less have any significant effect on the fight......