Etiquette in BJJ - Did I violate it?

**tangler** · Posted On: 8/24/2012 4:27pm

Hey guys,

First off I wanted to apologize for being a bit of a !@$%y douche earlier. I was being arrogant and recognize that now.

Anyway, I have a question about BJJ etiquette and if I violated it or not today.

For rolling, I was paired with a girl (first time I rolled with a girl - aren't many in my gym). I decided that I wouldn't treat her any differently than any of my guy partners (assuming that would be sexist) and try my hardest. After all, as I small guy myself I must face much stronger guys than me all the time and they usually don't go easy on me.

We started standing and I immediately tapped her with a guillotine as she attempted to shoot at my legs. She seemed irritated by this, but brushed it off.

We then rolled again, I decided to try a take down and move it to the ground so we had a chance to practice more BJJ. I successfully pulled a sweep and took her to the ground. From there a long battle ensued where I tried to use as little force as possible and focus on technique. Finally she got me in her guard, which I tried to pass but she clamped me down by pulling me deep into her guard with my collar. At this point she began to attempt a collar choke. I knew that I was pretty deep in her guard and escaping would be difficult; she may have time to pull the choke if I let up on my defense. So instead I decided to counter choke her to draw her attack off me. It worked and I was able to get the choke, but as I drew in to finish, my partner stopped me and told me that "Something is really wrong with you if you try to choke me in my guard. You should be trying to get out", she was really pissed at me, I could tell and was really bitter about my move. So, thinking I had done something wrong, I apologized and tried to break guard. Anyway, long story short, I ended up finally losing to an armbar at the end of the match.

But thinking about it afterwards, I don't think I did anything wrong. On the one hand, it is probably good practice for me to try to break guard and pass and I should work on it. On the other, if it is such a bad idea for me to attempt a choke in her guard, she should demonstrate that by stopping me, instead of patronizing me when she cant defend against my choke.

Did I do something wrong? Or was she just being a poor sport because she was losing?

Also, I noticed that other guys were going easy on her. Is it commonplace to go easy on women in BJJ? This seems against the whole point of training; she would be getting a false sense of her ability if that were the case and wouldn't know how to handle someone stronger.

So anyway, was I breaking etiquette by going for the choke?

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 8/24/2012 6:16pm

Ezekiel choke from inside the guard in a Brown belt competition.

No, you didn't violate any etiquette, it's just that an ezekiel choke from inside the guard can be countered easely because you are in a bad position.
It's considered a gimmick move when started from inside closed guard and BJJers don't like to tap to a gimmick move.

It's better to start an Ezekiel choke from mount or half-guard, but if you start one from those positions and your opponent puts you in closed guard, just finish it then in closed guard.

**Like Water** · Posted On: 8/24/2012 6:25pm

I go as "easy" on women as I do any person smaller than me. This entails focusing on technique over strength, and checking my ego at the door, which it sounds like you forgot to do. If their technique is solid, and I can't get my escape in a technical manner that would've worked on someone bigger than me (this is part of my answer about your choke, hint hint) then I will tap. Even when I could've easily muscled my way out.

You should always be working to improve position if you're in someone's guard. Position, then submission. You should be in a safer, dominant submission before you even think about attacking. If you couldn't break her guard, well obviously that's what you need to work on, not on a collar choke that wouldn't work on someone who knew what they were doing.

I've been practicing for two years longer than you, and I've never hit a sub from inside someone's guard. I've been told by instructors at multiple schools never to bother trying, because it's not going to work, realistically. There's probably multiple reasons for this, but big obvious reason number one that I've seen from dealing with newbies who try this when they're in my guard: you're in my guard! I'm in a dominant position, with control over your entire body! My legs can force you out of the position you need to get your choke in deep enough to tap me. Unless, perhaps, I'm a much smaller female and you somehow manage to brute strength in on there anyways.

Just the opinion of the smallest (adult) who practices at my gym. There's lots of people who out-muscle me and get me to tap. But the best grapplers are the ones who could, don't, and make me feel helpless with timing and leverage instead.

Random: If people are looking pissed after your guillotine, make sure you've got the choke around the neck and not around their face. A guillotine that's about to break my jaw is worse, in my opinion, but this isn't a self-defence situation. These are your training partners.

**judojeff** · Posted On: 8/24/2012 6:25pm

You did nothing wrong, although I would advise aginst trying to choke out of guard because its easily blocked and countered. Nothing wrong with going just as strong with a girl as you would with a guy, lord knows there are plenty of women who can kick my ass and they didn't get that good by people going easy on them.

**tangler** · Posted On: 8/24/2012 6:56pm

Thanks for the replies. It wasn't very technical of me to try it, which is why I stopped after she pointed it out. Although I think it was pretty overreactive to be angry about it. I am also a smaller guy, I actually think I am the smallest in my gym, and I get strong armed all the time by bigger guys but dont get upset about it.

Also, Like Water, I didn't catch her face, I got her neck, just FYI :)

Btw, OFF TOPIC, but I execute the guillotine as a windpipe choke but I have heard it's dangerous to put pressure on someones trachea. I have tried a few times to do a blood choke guillotine but I can never seem to pull it off, or at least no one seems to tap. Any tips?

**ChenPengFi** · Posted On: 8/24/2012 7:13pm

It sounds like you are trying to "win" at sparring, as opposed to trying to "learn BJJ".
I think that makes you kind of a douche.

**Like Water** · Posted On: 8/24/2012 7:23pm

Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs

No, you didn't violate any etiquette, it's just that an ezekiel choke from inside the guard can be countered easely because you are in a bad position.
It's considered a gimmick move when started from inside closed guard and BJJers don't like to tap to a gimmick move.

This is more what I was getting at, for the record. It is of course, not impossible to pull off a choke from inside someone's guard. Just generally a waste of time to bother, and definitely a waste of training time to not be working on something like passing guard, instead.

I say just be careful with tracheal chokes. If you aren't too insanely brutish with it, and your partner's ego doesn't keep them from tapping when they really should, there shouldn't be a huge problem. I've gone home with a sore trachea before; but it's really not teh deadly that trachea striking karate folks would have you believe it is.

**tangler** · Posted On: 8/24/2012 7:33pm

ChengPengFi:
That may be so. But TBH, most of the guys I roll with are trying to win, using brute strength when they don't have the technique just to edge in a victory. I don't see what is wrong with trying to keep up and win as well. Most people in my school seem to roll to win, maybe they shouldn't, and there are those that don't, but it does make it more fun sometimes.

**itwasntme** · Posted On: 8/24/2012 7:38pm

Tangler, what's your rank in BJJ? I only ask because if you knew enough about BJJ to know when people muscled a technique or just used, well, technique then you likely would not be here asking your OP.