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  1. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2012 7:15pm

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     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tangler View Post
    BJJ is a very technical art and is often advertised this way and many practitioners claim that size doesn't matter in BJJ if one has the technique down. While this is mostly true, I do think that many practitioners (and instructors) of BJJ fail to recognize the reality that, while BJJ is technical and any sized person can be successful in it, size does change the game a little bit.

    I am a noob to BJJ, having only been practicing for 3 months. But in my defense I have rolled with many guys now, many much bigger than me and some smaller, I have also rolled with blue belts and white belts, most with much more experience than me, and have tapped blues. But I am not claiming to be an expert in any way, and just want to facilitate a discussion on this topic here...


    I'll preface this list by saying that I am only 145 lbs, most guys I face are bigger than me in my gym, usually 175-200 lbs and muscular.
    Small three month noob, gotcha.

    So here are some things that I think change when facing much larger opponents (and if you are a smaller guy in general).

    1.) Full Guard:

    I have noticed that bigger guys have the advantage in full guard in a number of ways. If you are in their guard, due to their size, they have a much easier time of controlling you than you do them, because they can apply their weight with their legs more effectively to draw the smaller guy in deep to their guard. Also, they can break a smaller guys full guard much easier by standing up; even with a strong full guard (which I have), I have literally been picked up in full guard, where the big guy just used his size and gravity to claw me off.

    My Solutions:
    I try to avoid being put in full guard all together as a smaller guy, especially when I'm in a Gi and have handles the big guy can use (in nogi, I have found that I can use my speed and slipperiness to escape full guard, even against bigger opponents). If the opponent is in open guard I try to pull a 50/50 instead of risk the pass.

    In order to control my opponent when he is in my guard, I will generally try to sweep him if he tries to stand and break my guard with force. Otherwise I will constantly be switching my guard positions, to keep him in control, one good guard that I usually fall back on that I have found easy to maintain as a small guy is half guard, although advancing from this position can be tricky.
    So you are experimenting with guards, sweeps, etc. I fail to see how this has anything to do with size, you should be doing that with everyone.

    2.) Full mount:

    I have noticed that big guys have a huge advantage here. They can hold smaller guys much more effectively in this position and can more easily Upa (sp?) the smaller guys who can achieve mount. I have found that if a big guy gets mount on me, its over. Conversely if I get mount on a big guy he will often just muscle out of it with his size. If I fight him and brace with my hands, I can sometimes hold him, but the minute I let up for side mount or go for an armbar, they guy will hip out of the mount or Upa me.

    my solution:
    I try to avoid full mount as a offensive position against bigger guys. If I find myself in it, I know that I will either have to attack fast, or use it as a setup for a different move. Instead, I have developed my guard offenses and focused on taking the opponents back as an offensive move.
    Learn to maintain the position. Right now that should be your mantra, "position before submission". If you can't hold a dominant position, forget applying an attack from it "quickly" and work on holding the position. Seriously, stop thinking that you need to "get the tap" in training. Work on your weaknesses. Your weakness is your top game. Getting the back seems to be a move you are comfortable with, cool, if you are getting it regularly, it is one of your strengths, you won't "lose it" if you don't do it. Work on your weakness.


    3.) Arm bar:

    This part is bound to be controversial, but I think that the arm bar is much easier to pull for bigger guys, who I notice will often use strength in leu of technique to muscle the attack. On the offensive, as a smaller guy, I have found that it is really difficult to pull the armbar free from armbar defenses; one guy much stronger than me even used sheer bicep strength to prevent me from competing the move; this sort of thing happens often, and if I try to get the arm free, the bigger guy will often just roll me over and break free. In contrast, when I try armbar defenses against bigger/stronger guys, they will often times bypass them with sheer strength.
    You're doing it wrong.


    my solution:
    for armbar escapes against stronger/bigger guys, I have learned to use the position of my body to free up my arm in hopes of an escape. This usually works. (Of course bigger guys usually dont do this, they just rip free).
    Once again, you're obviously experimenting with what works, this is a good thing. Your role at the moment is to survive. You learn and adapt to do so.

    For executing an armbar against bigger opponents, I am still stuck on this. I have focused on different submissions, particularly chokes that I am able to apply without fighting the opponent's strength once I sneak past their guard. Any suggestions?
    Yeah, don't worry about submissions until you can control your opponent.

    Also, as a smaller guy who has rolled with all kind of opponents, I have found it easier to tap blue belts my size (some - probably the bad ones) than white belts much larger than me. I know as my technique improves and my style develops this will be less of a problem, but I think that will largely be because my style will have to adapt to fit my smaller stature.
    This attitude is somewhat disrespectful. You're three months in and you tap "bad" blues. Stow that **** right now. A three month white belt would have me trying out new **** I have just learned on them. They might be going easy on you because you're a fucking noob. You might be spazzing the **** out and instead of getting hurt themselves, they just allow you to have a tap.


    What do you guys think? has anyone else experienced the same problems against larger guys? Different ones? How do you counter them?
    I am probably the larger end of the average size of my gym. By far not the biggest, but definitely not the smallest. I have a lot of trouble with smaller blues because they have some wicked technique, I have a lot of trouble with bigger blues because they have technique and size. I have trouble with some of the bigger whites while I am on par with some of the guys my size who are blue.

    FORGET RANK. Work on positional dominance. If you are having trouble with your armbar, it is because you are not securing it right. When I lose an armbar it is not because such and such had wicked bicep strength (FUCKING NO ONES BICEP IS STRONGER THAN A PERSONS CORE), or because they're strength enabled them to get their arm out. MY TECHNIQUE SUCKED and thus I worked on my armbar technique until it worked. Now, when I go for an armbar, it is slapped on right, tight and no matter how hard they fight, no matter their size, I'm taking that arm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  2. tangler is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2012 7:16pm


     Style: BJJ

    -2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Your missing the point, the whole freaking point of Judo/BJJ

    Leverage (something the vast majority of the techniques use) + Timing. There are no "special" techniques. really very little minutia even needs to be changed.
    Okay, that seems to be a more direct response to my question.

    JNP, I may have made a blanket statement, and perhaps I should not analyze so much, but I also think it's pretty egotistical to disregard a noobs ideas just because they are a noob. Evaluate my points based on what I said, not on how offended you are that I am willing to question authority. That is how some people learn after all.
  3. tangler is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2012 7:20pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    Small three month noob, gotcha.



    So you are experimenting with guards, sweeps, etc. I fail to see how this has anything to do with size, you should be doing that with everyone.



    Learn to maintain the position. Right now that should be your mantra, "position before submission". If you can't hold a dominant position, forget applying an attack from it "quickly" and work on holding the position. Seriously, stop thinking that you need to "get the tap" in training. Work on your weaknesses. Your weakness is your top game. Getting the back seems to be a move you are comfortable with, cool, if you are getting it regularly, it is one of your strengths, you won't "lose it" if you don't do it. Work on your weakness.



    You're doing it wrong.



    Once again, you're obviously experimenting with what works, this is a good thing. Your role at the moment is to survive. You learn and adapt to do so.



    Yeah, don't worry about submissions until you can control your opponent.



    This attitude is somewhat disrespectful. You're three months in and you tap "bad" blues. Stow that **** right now. A three month white belt would have me trying out new **** I have just learned on them. They might be going easy on you because you're a fucking noob. You might be spazzing the **** out and instead of getting hurt themselves, they just allow you to have a tap.



    I am probably the larger end of the average size of my gym. By far not the biggest, but definitely not the smallest. I have a lot of trouble with smaller blues because they have some wicked technique, I have a lot of trouble with bigger blues because they have technique and size. I have trouble with some of the bigger whites while I am on par with some of the guys my size who are blue.

    FORGET RANK. Work on positional dominance. If you are having trouble with your armbar, it is because you are not securing it right. When I lose an armbar it is not because such and such had wicked bicep strength (FUCKING NO ONES BICEP IS STRONGER THAN A PERSONS CORE), or because they're strength enabled them to get their arm out. MY TECHNIQUE SUCKED and thus I worked on my armbar technique until it worked. Now, when I go for an armbar, it is slapped on right, tight and no matter how hard they fight, no matter their size, I'm taking that arm.
    Thanks for responding to each of my points individually. I agree with what you said. And I do show plenty of respect in my classes to all of my fellows, especially higher ranked people. I am on this forum speaking this way because I figured I can be honest and get feedback try to analyze things to improve myself. I agree that survival is important, and that is what I have been working on. Only recently have I even considered attacks.
  4. Azatdawn is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2012 7:22pm


     Style: Thaiboxing; MMA nb

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Looking at your new thread in Newbietown... go back to lurking for some time. Use that time to read the stickies. Oh, and train, obviously.
  5. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2012 7:23pm

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     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tangler View Post
    Okay, that seems to be a more direct response to my question.

    JNP, I may have made a blanket statement, and perhaps I should not analyze so much, but I also think it's pretty egotistical to disregard a noobs ideas just because they are a noob. Evaluate my points based on what I said, not on how offended you are that I am willing to question authority. That is how some people learn after all.
    I side with jnp on this, because I thought I was King Dingaling after three months grappling, especially when I started tapping out others. Three years later and I am humble as ****... while tapping out others.

    I think it was jnp that has a rule somewhere on here that says you aren't "advanced" until you've been grappling for two years. And when you're advanced, then you can start to "question authority".
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  6. RandomTriangle is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2012 2:52pm


     Style: Judo-Brown

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Unless you train 6 days a week, 2 years is not enough time to be considered advanced.

    On the subject of dealing with much larger opponents I, like most people, have an A game, B game, and C game. The one I use depends on how I feel. More specifically how my joints feel (I.e. is my neck super stuff, lower back, or knee pain)

    My A game involves all standing passes, KOB, catching subs via transitions when on top. And a go around bottom Game (arm drags, DLH) from bottom.

    Obviously im simplifying, bu that style seems to mitigate an opponents strength advantage the most. Obviously strength still matters, but it matters less using an arm drag than say, pulling someone ino DHG.

    And just to echo everyone else, it takes time to even know what you dont know. Drill, drill,drill...
  7. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2012 3:43pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    6
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you stick with BJJ this post will be HILARIOUS to you in a year or two. When I go back and read my old posts I can't even believe the **** I used to think I knew. Keep on rollin' keep on trollin'
  8. tangler is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2012 4:43pm


     Style: BJJ

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeahhh, I already recognize that I was being a bit of a **** on this post. I must have been feeling feisty when I wrote it.
  9. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2012 5:10pm

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     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    If you stick with BJJ this post will be HILARIOUS to you in a year or two. When I go back and read my old posts I can't even believe the **** I used to think I knew. Keep on rollin' keep on trollin'
    ^^^ What this guy said.

    We think we know, until we know. Then, we think we now know, until we now know. We finally only know when we realize that we probably won't ever know but we will keep on trying to know anyways.

    From reading what you wrote, it seems you are more interested in learning specific "techniques" that will allow you to either get, hang with, or survive against those that are bigger than you. Another poster also talked about timing. These two things are important and I will discuss them below.

    Technique - Honestly, when you begin, you are a technique hoarder; grabbing everything you can get your hands on. You keep what "works" and you discard the rest. You are a JKD of a grappler. Or, better yet, a noob in math. You know that 1+1=2 and that 1x1=1. As you progress, you will begin to understand the concepts of grappling better. It won't be about individual techniques, it will be more about concepts of leverage, movement, and (see below) timing. You are now understanding WHY 1+1=2 and WHY 1x1+1. You understand multiplication. You understand addition.

    Knowing that 1+1=2 and knowing WHY 1+1=2 is the difference between having techniques and having "technique".

    Timing - I wanted to touch on this individually as well because this is really important. Its something I have to constantly work with when developing my own game as well as helping my fellow students and when I instruct. Timing is NOT speed. Speed is doing something fast. Timing is knowing WHEN to do something. You don't have this yet. Not even close.

    Speed is someone putting an Armbar on really fast and trying to apply it so the person can't defend.

    Timing is something knowing the exact time when the arm is exposed and your opponent's ability to defend the Armbar is at it's lowest and your ability to apply it is at its highest. This is important. It's the reason you may see, or experience yourself, the feeling that you "saw it coming" but could do nothing about it.

    Once you you have "technique" and timing, you will find yourself being better adapt at dealing with bigger opponents. It will still suck. Especially considering that they are also developing those things as well while still having a size advantage over you.
  10. RandomTriangle is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2012 7:46pm


     Style: Judo-Brown

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Completely agree... But let's not act like technique selection isn't important. Timing is a long term answer. The short term is work "these" techniques, which ever ones you feel are best for bigger opponents.

    You know, stay away from closed guard when on your back, work standing passes, etc....
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