Question for Her Majesty's Servants on Bullshido

**Hollykate** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 9:20am

I think in the uk it would have gone something like this

look at it it's like a guided missile!

You think you can knife all those riot cops and there dogs?

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 9:36am

Originally Posted by Tom .C

So Belgium trains their officers to just shoot deserving perps just a little bit?

Yes and No.
There's a lot more firing training (critical mass, specific targetting and life emulation drills) compared to the US.
Firing training is mandatory in hours with shooting tests every 3 months throughout a police officers active career.

The reglementation is that if they can bring in a perp alive is better than bringing one in dead, but it al comes down to split decisions, but there are also mandatory classes in pepperspray/baton/taser usage, situational awareness and negotiation tactics.

So yes, feet and legs (while there are mayor arteries in them) are targeted more in above situations. In the long run it will come down to the decision made in the field by the police officers.

and btw, a bulletvest wearing, assault riffle carrying shooter in a theatre is a deserving perp.
A knifewielding mental ill person is an idiot, but not a deserving perp if there was time enough for 6 police officers (meaning: 3 patrol cars) to get to the scene, they all could line up whilest pointing their firearms.

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 9:44am

Originally Posted by dougguod

No, he wouldn't. Under the adrenaline dump of facing an armed person very few beat cops are going to have the skill to hit a target as small and mobile as a hand or foot. Even attmpting to do so in a populated area where stray shots could hit bystanders within hundreds of yards of the encounter would be irresponsible.

Don't forget the legs, it makes a bigger target and if no arteries are hit, even a non-lethal target.

If you are saying that "beat cops" haven't had the training nor skills to wound that man in a non-lethal way in that specific situation or deal with adrenaline dumps that came in that specific situation, well than send a letter to your congressman demanding that there should be more funding for the police training!

**ermghoti** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 11:07am

Post some news stories of police deliberately shooting people in the hand. That's basically the standing wristlock of the shooting world, ie if you are in a position of sufficient control to actually do it, there is still something else that is a better idea.

Yes, a dog is probably the best bet. Those cops didn't appear to have a dog.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 12:12pm

If a guy takes 46 bullets to go down, how many wrestles and karate chops would it take? Probably hundreds!

**dflanmod** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 1:58pm

Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs

Here in Belgium our cops carry sidearms and in the above case the attacker would get hit in the knife holding hand OR in the foot, followed by a "Rodney King" type of beating. Afterwich, when he was tenderized, he would be taken to the hospital for treathment.

Unless of course the attacker was German. Then they would stand there cocks in hand and dither on about non violent ways to appease/stop them whilst the attackers goose stepped their way across the entirety of Europe.

I kid, I kid.

On a more serious note here is the problem that I have with these situations.

On the one hand you have a person that is a detriment to society.
On the other you have somebody who is appointed to protect the rest from the detriment.

And in the arm chair you have the guy who feels so bad for the dirt bag cause he got shot that he is willing to send the good guy in to possibly get maimed or killed while attempting to deploy less than lethal or hand to hand techniques because he just can't stand to see anybody except the good guys getting hurt..

Could it have been done better? Possibly. But am I willing from the comfort of my chair to suggest that some poor bastard enter into 21' the danger zone with a taser for the sake of taking some dirtbag down without harm?

**Eddie Hardon** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 2:30pm

46 bullets? He must have been an Iron Shirt Master. Go train with him and report back.

Please.

**dougguod** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 2:38pm

Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs

Don't forget the legs, it makes a bigger target and if no arteries are hit, even a non-lethal target.

If you are saying that "beat cops" haven't had the training nor skills to wound that man in a non-lethal way in that specific situation or deal with adrenaline dumps that came in that specific situation, well than send a letter to your congressman demanding that there should be more funding for the police training!

Legs are substantially smaller than torsos. This offers the twin problems of being harder to hit (harder still if the perp is in motion) and an increased possibility that the round(s) will penetrate the target and keep going until it hits something/someone else. Oh, and "if no arteries are hit"? Good luck shooting someone in the thigh without at least nicking the femoral. You're talking Lone Ranger-esque nonsense. But even in the best-case scenario, what citizenry is going to stand for police deliberately wounding, perhaps permanently, suspects?

You don't understand how American police forces are funded. Congress, aside from the occasional federal grant, has nothing to do with it. The money comes out of state and local budgets, many of which are already stretched to their limit. Plus there's the investment of time required. These are civilian officers. We can't order them to spend forty hours a week on patrol and twenty hours a week doing simunitions exercises. Cops need a range of tools to work with because not every suspect needs killing, but many frankly do. A gun is good for only one thing. If taser and/or OC have failed or can be reasonably expected to fail then lethal force is warranted.

**Dirty Rooster** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 3:03pm

I was looking for the +rep thing that used to be there and noticed these two grey hands.
I must've clicked one.

Originally Posted by judoka_uk

...The police's job is to catch people doing 72mph on motorways and arrest people who try and stop gypsies setting up camp on their land.

I'm still fine with driving at 72mph, but then I do drive one of them inconspicuous cars.

Back to the topic : man draws and brandishes knife as an offensive action : anyone near should be happy to shoot him until dead. (Was there a vid? Should I watch it?)
Not going to happen here since not many carry guns but really, knife-wielding maniacs should be disintegrated on the spot.
"Refusing to drop a knife after repeated requests" : there you have his suicide note.

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 8/20/2012 5:14pm

Originally Posted by dougguod

Legs are substantially smaller than torsos. This offers the twin problems of being harder to hit (harder still if the perp is in motion) and an increased possibility that the round(s) will penetrate the target and keep going until it hits something/someone else. Oh, and "if no arteries are hit"? Good luck shooting someone in the thigh without at least nicking the femoral. You're talking Lone Ranger-esque nonsense. But even in the best-case scenario, what citizenry is going to stand for police deliberately wounding, perhaps permanently, suspects?

You don't understand how American police forces are funded. Congress, aside from the occasional federal grant, has nothing to do with it. The money comes out of state and local budgets, many of which are already stretched to their limit. Plus there's the investment of time required. These are civilian officers. We can't order them to spend forty hours a week on patrol and twenty hours a week doing simunitions exercises. Cops need a range of tools to work with because not every suspect needs killing, but many frankly do. A gun is good for only one thing. If taser and/or OC have failed or can be reasonably expected to fail then lethal force is warranted.

Here's the link to the year reports of the Belgian police:
http://www.polfed-fedpol.be/pub/jaar...verslag_nl.php

But I'll make it easy for you since you probabely don't speak Dutch (p39 of the 2011 report).
2008: 233 instanties
2009: 269 instanties
2010: 208 instanties
2011: 233 instanties
Total population of Belgium: 11 million.
These are the recorded official reports when Belgian police officers have fired on a perp.

At this moment I can only find 3 shootings where the perp was killed by the police in the media (these stories get a lot of press coverage) for 2011 and until now only 1 in 2012 (but that year is still in progress). Still leaves a max 230 shootings without deads for 2011.

Here's one of a perp getting shot in the legs (10 august 2012):
http://www.atv.be/item/man-been-geschoten-door-politie

been = leg
neergeschoten = shot
man = man
For more info ram it through Google Translate!

That's the second time you used the strawman that a bullet on a downward trajectery (legs are positioned lower on the human body than the torso) will become an innocent bystander killing bullet once it richochets from the ground.

Sorry to say but a horizontal trajectory that misses the torso is more dangerous since it isn't deformed by impact and travels further do to the trajectory and the absense of kinetic energy loss (by missing the initial target).

And please don't say that "beat cops" are trained just enough that they can hit the upperbody perfectly, but will completely miss a leg, because here's your equation: 6 cops empty their mags if they follow their training (according to Vince Tortelli's statement of standard Police training), the victim gets hit 46 times...so 4 cops had a 8 bullet mag in their service weapon and 2 cops had a 7 bullet mag in theirs? Or the 6 cops had all 8 bullet mags and 2 bullets have missed their target and are (probabely) now inbedded in a wall?
According to Occam's Razor, which would be the more plausible explination?

I'm out of this conversation!