1. #1

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Catch wrestling in Ermelo/Netherlands

    Last night i was training at the gym and noticed a flyer in the dressing room announcing that there would be Catch wrestling and MMA classes coming soon (a month or so).

    So i went to the owner and asked for details.
    The owner pointed me towards a guy and said thats him.
    I went over and had a talk with him.

    He told me alot about catch wrestling and why it was a good art
    and we also talked a little bit about MMA.

    He was a nice guy and knew what he was talking about on Catch.
    However when i asked about his MMA skill
    He simply said:Oh i'm not great at it far from it,
    My striking is average i'm just a pretty dominant wrestler.
    and my lack of stand up is compensated by beating someone up
    on the ground.

    Now my question to you all is:
    Is this guy to be trusted with teaching MMA?

    Also how likely is it that a dutch guy is a Catch wrestler?

  2. #2

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For clarification, is the coach teaching both the mma and catch wrestling classes? If he is, then you can ask this person about his previous experience in mma - how long he's been doing it, how long he's been coaching, stuff like that.

  3. #3

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes he is doing both.
    he also told me he had some fights, i believe he said 15 mostly amateur.

    his reasons for not going full pro where at first (when he was younger)
    was a career as a security consultant.

    I also asked him if we would want to fight Pro now,
    He replied: no i'm more into teaching these days then fighting myself.

    Is it a good sign that a coach does not pursue a fighting career?
    (he is not that old he looks 28 max)

  4. #4
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's almost no Catch Wrestling in the BeNeLux. Hell, it's even difficult to find a Greco-Roman or Freestyle school here.

    Ask him for his Catch Wrestling lineage and make some calls. That's about all you can do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:

  5. #5

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So i talked with him today and asked his liniage as adviced.
    to my suprise it wasn't an overblown story with action movie like heroics.

    actually it was a little underwelming.
    He literaly told that he has no liniage since catch wrestling just doesn't exist in the netherlands.
    He learned some basics from his grandfather who learned it in England during his service
    The rest he learned from going on vacation to england to train and Seminars
    Including seminars from erik paulson when he was in germany.
    The rest of his skills come from grappling and greco Roman wrestling


    While i really appriciate his honesty,i do not know what to make of it
    He is just a mix of many styles and he has a passion for catch.

    still i would like to know if this would be considered "real catch"


    also i checked with the places he said he trained at and they confirm it
    as for his erik paulson claim he did showed me photo's of him with erik paulson

  6. #6

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    His honesty is encouraging, but his lineage less so. The instructor probably understands catch wrestling reasonably well, but not as well as you'd like for a pure catch class. If you're ok with learning a mixture of grappling styles with some catch wrestling included, then that guy is probably worth training with, assuming his greco and whatever other wrestling styles he has are good. If you just want catch wrestling, then what the instructor provides might not be quite good enough for you, and you might have to abandon your quest for catch since it doesn't sound like that style really exists in the Netherlands anyway

  7. #7
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If his Greco-Roman and Submission Grappling (if indeed it's based on nogi-BJJ) are good, you will come the closest to Catch Wrestling as possible without training Catch Wrestling.

    Later you can go to seminars of Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling (the DVDs are good), but go to the schools in Germany and England.
    At this moment the two certified CSW instructors in Belgium aren't teaching CSW here, but BJJ and MixFight, altough I'm trying to convince one of them to drop the MixFight and start teaching CSW again. (will keep you posted).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:

  8. #8

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree,

    its the closest think to catch we are going to get and i do not mind learning a mix of styles as long as it works and i'm having fun.
    I do not know about his actual sparring skills for we haven't sparred yet he only showed some typical catch tricks which where really fun (and painfull if he would have hooked it)

    i do look foward to the classes coming and time will tell how skilled he is.

    I actually do wonder if a liniage can start with just one guy
    I read a book on catch from jake shannon, which stated that catch wrestling can be interped in anyform by anyone as long as it keeps within the rules

    i wonder how BJJ guy would think of this(liniage starting by an unknown) since they do have a tendency to want to learn from a strong liniage instead of an unknown instructor.

  9. #9
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boneless View Post
    I actually do wonder if a liniage can start with just one guy
    I read a book on catch from jake shannon, which stated that catch wrestling can be interped in anyform by anyone as long as it keeps within the rules

    i wonder how BJJ guy would think of this(liniage starting by an unknown) since they do have a tendency to want to learn from a strong liniage instead of an unknown instructor.
    Once upon a time Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was started with two lineages that had nothing to do with eachother (Fadda Jiu Jitsu and Gracie Jiu Jitsu), except that Helio Gracie and Luis Franša (Oswaldo Fadda would become his student) learned from the same Judoka, namely Mitsuyo Maeda.

    90 years later, we have lineages that we can track back to one of those two, a competition set and (still) a decent quality control on the ranking. So for a BJJer to look outside that circuit if he only wants to train BJJ would be a waste of time, trying to reinvent the wheel again.

    With Catch Wrestling, it's a different story.
    Altough there were different strong lineages in it, it was never really contributed to one person, but to a place (Lancashire, England) and later to a time periode/place, the late 19th, early 20th century American carnavals.
    This makes it difficult/impossible to create a centralized standard curriculum and an organization to maintain that curriculum, a competition standard and a quality standard.

    Catch As Catch Can = catch a hold anywhere/anyway you can, so the nature of Catch wrestling is to constant evolve by incorporating "Rasslin'" techniques of other grappling styles (Judo, BJJ, SubGrapp, SAMBO, Greco-Roman, Freestyle and other Folkstyles) into their original Lancashire CACC.
    Unfortunally the most money was earned with Pro-Wrestling, so a lot of Catch Wrestlers became entertainers (in France "Catch" is used for Pro-Wrestling). That in combination with Greco-Roman and Freestyle becoming Olympic Sports meant almost the death sentence for Catch Wrestling.

    Now Catch is still a resiliant style, while it changed from fighting to entertainment almost in the whole world, well years later the entertainment evolved again to fighting in Japan: out of Pro-Wrestling came Shoot Wrestling and a new lineage of fighters. Erik Paulson is one of the more famous. Yet overtime Shoot Wrestling started to incorporate kicks and punches to evolve into Shooto, an MMA style. Nowadays pure Shoot Wrestling is as hard to find as Catch wrestling.

    so in the end, the nature of Catch Wrestling makes it possible to start a lineage on the condition that you codify your basic curriculum, have a systematic trainingmethode and keep "ranking" standards high.

    The only rules that you have to apply for "Catch Wrestling" are:
    - No Gi
    - fight for dominant high position (like all the other Wrestling styles and Judo)
    - submission attacks on the four limbs + chokes
    - Never get your two shoulders pinned on the floor (like Greco-Roman/Freestyle)
    - takedowns by shoots AND throws
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:

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