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  1. JesusChrist is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2012 6:01am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    Not in so many words. Part of it stems from using only live weapons, so that necessarily cuts down on one's ability to spar with any real intent.

    I'll ask him when I see him. If anyone else has questions they'd like me to pass on, please mention them.
    Yeah where can I get one of those sexy looking punjabi kukris with the awesome hilt?
  2. Robdogg is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2012 6:39am


     Style: JKD, BJJ, FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    Not in so many words. Part of it stems from using only live weapons, so that necessarily cuts down on one's ability to spar with any real intent.

    I'll ask him when I see him. If anyone else has questions they'd like me to pass on, please mention them.
    I'd be interested in knowing why they only use live weapons instead of safer alternatives. Is it an issue of culture? Like, perhaps they've always practiced with live weapons, and he's trying to preserve part of his people's history? Or is it an issue of respecting the blade? If he hasn't told you already, I'd really appreciate it if you'd ask him that (assuming that's the kind of question you can ask without offending the instructor).
  3. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 8:29pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    This is a problem I see with Shastar Vidya, the lack of sparring. Hell, it would seem to have a lack of basics too. Although there's a lot of really cool material to learn, I would say the students have a very long road to achieve proficiency. Again, that's why I put the art in the "exotic" category - an interesting add-on, but I couldn't see it being my base art.
    Gatka has plenty of sparring, and seems related I think
  4. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 8:32pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    doublepost
    Last edited by selfcritical; 8/22/2012 8:34pm at . Reason: deleted for repost
  5. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 11:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Robdogg View Post
    Oh wow. I'd read that much of Gatka comes from the practices of the British Indian Army, but I didn't know that the influence of British sword fighting was quite so strong. That also makes the name "gatka" really misleading; it's almost like saying that a huge portion of karate was actually muay thai in disguise.
    What I meant was the sword exercises from the military when I said British swordplay. There's a British Gatka PDF floating around and its from the colonial era. Reading through it, it looked similar to period fencing manuals, not just in technique but in overall pedagogy. I also got the feeling that not only was it reminiscent of fencing- it was structured in a "Western military" sort of format too.

    Of course, there's the possibility that its heavily based on local arts and it just happens to be structured similar to fencing. Constant of human anatomy + similar weapons + similar objectives/paramenters and all that.
  6. wikidbounce is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2012 1:00am


     Style: Sticks & Jits & Fritz

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found an interesting article Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya site which deferentiates between traditional Sikh military arts and modern Gatka.

    Here's a quote from page 7.

    From 1857 onwards, Khalsa Hindu Sikh fighting skills came to be wrongly termed as 'Gatka'.
    This British Raj-nurtured Gatka was a fighting system shorn of its lethal aspect 'Chatka'. It was no longer a military system, just as the Sikhi of the British Raj era, it was no longer the free fierce Sikhi of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
    Furthermore, Gatka was practiced in the public arena, as opposed to the traditional combat art form that went underground during the British Raj. This exhibitionist Gatka came to be known in certain knowledgeable Chatka circles as 'Jahir Gatka'.
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/gatka7.jsp
  7. wikidbounce is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2012 7:20am


     Style: Sticks & Jits & Fritz

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Explored his site further and found an old Video of a Gatka exhibition in India, has some nice stickfighting, they do a few crazy flips and suddenly KNIFE GRAPPLING...

    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/videos/...ir%20gatka.swf

    It's .swf format too which gave me nostalgia to all those early internet videos.

    With every clash of sword-on-sword, or sword-on-shield, or stick-on-stick, the aim is to gain the applause of the watching audience, and add to the spirit and cheer of the religious and cultural festivals.
    His site describes this as popular showmanship Gatka as opposed to the "Secret Battle field Arts".

    It goes on to talk about Lineage and calling other masters charlatans and hypocrites. Might be just a bit of "My Turban is Bigger than Your Turban" but there could be McDojos in Indian MA too.
    Last edited by wikidbounce; 8/24/2012 7:55am at .
  8. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2012 12:38pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool video! Interesting how they use such a long stick with a close 2 handed grip instead of a conventional wider staff grip. Reminds me of tapado.
  9. Chili Pepper is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 9:30am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, so I unfortunately was unable to attend more than one day of training. One can say what one wants about the art itself, but there's no denying that Nidar Singh himself is a class act: humble, funny, self-deprecating, and very giving of his time and knowledge.

    About sparring: blunted weapons/trainers are discouraged, because it's felt they lead to bad habits and poor technique. He and I did some slap-boxing (empty handed, with the kara/bracelet, and with the tiger claws (very similar to the ninjer shuko) and some weapons sparring (with the staff, staff and buckler, staff and katar, with kamagong sticks, and with blades). He has very fast hands, and knives appear from nowhere.

    Basically, he outlined sparring as progressing from indicating a strike, to touching with the hand or weapon, to drawing blood, to killing - that there was always the possibility of escalating.

    I'm slowly getting the idea behind one of the principles he harps on, namely being 'inside your opponent's shoulders' - basically, it's a method of positioning yourself, that subtlely provides some spatial advantage. He certainly makes it work for himself.

    We spent a lot of time working on dealing with multiple opponents. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're saying. Whether or not it is possible to in any way reliably deal with multiples, we've seen enough video examples where one committed, focused individual can hold off multiple assailants, at least for a few minutes.

    If we just take his multiple opponent drills as an added edge to seek escape routes, then yes, I see them as very practical. Much of it was dealing with two opponents, one in front, one behind, and how to efficiently turn so that you weren't giving up your back to the attacker behind you. In terms of dealing with two people in front of you, it lead back to the "being inside the shoulders" bit, and he joked the positioning was like dealing with "one very fat man."

    Oh, and he thinks ninjers are silly too. He was gently mocking about two guys from his last seminar, and their lunge punching, but tempered it by saying "but they're getting better."
  10. Robdogg is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 5:22pm


     Style: JKD, BJJ, FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    Okay, so I unfortunately was unable to attend more than one day of training. One can say what one wants about the art itself, but there's no denying that Nidar Singh himself is a class act: humble, funny, self-deprecating, and very giving of his time and knowledge.

    About sparring: blunted weapons/trainers are discouraged, because it's felt they lead to bad habits and poor technique. He and I did some slap-boxing (empty handed, with the kara/bracelet, and with the tiger claws (very similar to the ninjer shuko) and some weapons sparring (with the staff, staff and buckler, staff and katar, with kamagong sticks, and with blades). He has very fast hands, and knives appear from nowhere.

    Basically, he outlined sparring as progressing from indicating a strike, to touching with the hand or weapon, to drawing blood, to killing - that there was always the possibility of escalating.

    I'm slowly getting the idea behind one of the principles he harps on, namely being 'inside your opponent's shoulders' - basically, it's a method of positioning yourself, that subtlely provides some spatial advantage. He certainly makes it work for himself.

    We spent a lot of time working on dealing with multiple opponents. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're saying. Whether or not it is possible to in any way reliably deal with multiples, we've seen enough video examples where one committed, focused individual can hold off multiple assailants, at least for a few minutes.

    If we just take his multiple opponent drills as an added edge to seek escape routes, then yes, I see them as very practical. Much of it was dealing with two opponents, one in front, one behind, and how to efficiently turn so that you weren't giving up your back to the attacker behind you. In terms of dealing with two people in front of you, it lead back to the "being inside the shoulders" bit, and he joked the positioning was like dealing with "one very fat man."

    Oh, and he thinks ninjers are silly too. He was gently mocking about two guys from his last seminar, and their lunge punching, but tempered it by saying "but they're getting better."
    Sounds like a pretty great guy. I'm pleasantly surprised that he sparred with you, in spite of of his group's policy of having little or no aliveness. Why did he choose to spar with you? Is there a certain point after which members are allowed to spar, or did he just want to indulge you? Also, you said that they try to use live weapons whenever possible, does that mean that the katars and knives used in sparring were sharp?

    Forgive all the questions, I'm just interested. I also have to agree with you about the multiple attacker thing. While I don't think that you can really "win" against multiple opponents with any sort of consistency, I've found that I survive longer than I used to when my FMA class does multi-person sparring, and sometimes I can even successfully run away.
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