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  1. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2012 8:43pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @ Mr. Machete:
    I'm a bit uncomfortable with tallying up, say, Christian missionaries who got shot trying to get into Communist Eastern Europe during the bad old days of the Cold War with "blood shed in the name of religion", it just seems a bit like blaming the victim instead of putting it where it really belongs, with that lunatic Marx.....unless we consider Marxism itself a religion, where the protelariat savior will be redeemed through suffering and cast down the evil bourgeiose, ushering in heav....er, "true Communism" on Earth.

    @ Permalost:
    What you say is true, but the Greeks are the ones I am the most familiar with, since they had a habit of writing EVERYTHING down, plus they are the ones who get the most space in the popular books on military history armchair colonels (don't consider myself widely read enough to be an actual armchair general) read. Not without reason, considering the innovations they made with the hoplite and the phalanx while my ancestors were all wandering around drunk and naked practicing human sacrifice (my distant Scottish ancestors, I mean. It would be racist of me to refer to my Native American ancestors that way.)

    @Petter
    There is some truth in what you say. On the other hand, no politician ever has marched into power, whether at gunpoint or via the ballet box, with "I intend to increase my own personal influence while amassing a fortune beyond the wildest dreams of avarice", instead there is always a load of twaddle about "defending the Constitution", "ending the current culture of croneyism and corruption", "freedom and justice", and so and so forth.

    Does this mean we should henceforth scowl with dark suspicion on reform, freedom, justice, et al? Although after a quick flip through some of the U.S. election news I'm not sure I just typed that tongue in cheek.
  2. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2012 8:49pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Religious war seems like a largely Christian and Islamic phenomenon, and I think it's a side affect of those religions demanding to be dominate every aspect of whatever society they exist in, so any given war has a tendency to turn into a holy war. How many Buddhist or pagan holy wars can you think of off the top of your head? If you're like me, not many. Buddhist and pagan nations still made all kinds of war, they just didn't have the poor taste to drag religion into the issue.
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  3. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2012 9:08pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now hold on a second, McClaw. Didn't the Vikings believe that if you didn't die in battle, you couldn't get in the cool part of the afterlife?

    (Fair warning, all I know about Vikings I learned from Marvel Comics, select writings of Robert Howard, and movies starring Antonio Banderas)
  4. mike321 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2012 9:11pm


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    Many pagan religions embraced war as divine like other parts of the human experience. Helped avoid hypocrisy at least. Still some of those attitudes were full on scary.
  5. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2012 9:18pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    Religious war seems like a largely Christian and Islamic phenomenon,
    no, its just that because they are the biggest and most well documented examples they always get talked about (crusades etc) look at the vikings for example, or the aztecs.

    and I think it's a side affect of those religions demanding to be dominate every aspect of whatever society they exist in, so any given war has a tendency to turn into a holy war. How many Buddhist or pagan holy wars can you think of off the top of your head? If you're like me, not many. Buddhist and pagan nations still made all kinds of war, they just didn't have the poor taste to drag religion into the issue.
    all nations up until very recently ALWAYS dragged religion into it. much easier to get the peasants on the frontlines if they believe they are giving up their life for the greater good and not so someone can have an extra few concubines from that city of hotties over the hill.
  6. itwasntme is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2012 9:20pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    Religious war seems like a largely Christian and Islamic phenomenon, and I think it's a side affect of those religions demanding to be dominate every aspect of whatever society they exist in, so any given war has a tendency to turn into a holy war. How many Buddhist or pagan holy wars can you think of off the top of your head? If you're like me, not many. Buddhist and pagan nations still made all kinds of war, they just didn't have the poor taste to drag religion into the issue.
    Islam and Christianity are the worlds largest two religions, third is Buddhism. Naturally it is more probable for the number of "holy wars" to be tipped in their favor. Bring it down to scale, the Jews and Palestinians have been fighting a war over land they read in a book somewhere belonged to them. That book also happens to be their religious manual.

    As far as Pagans go, it makes perfect sense that not many people know whether or not they waged holy wars. They hardly kept written records. Even their religion changed over time because stories were all passed down orally. Before I go further, I'm assuming you are referring to Norsemen when you refer to Pagans which is really an unfit name and if you are referring to any polytheistic religions then the my last point stands even stronger. I would also like to point out that most major (if you can even call them that) Pagan religions were extinguished by Christians pretty early on with the Native Americans being the most recent.
    Start a training log!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    i really think that those who can't get their head around the bowing thing (because their angry sky daddy will punish them) don't deserve judo. life is full of choices, and if your bronze age superstitions are holding you back, so be it.
  7. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2012 11:39pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    "There has been more blood shed in the name of certain religions than in any other cause in history."
    Fixed.

    Not all religions have an equal history of aggression.

    If you really look at the world history of ALL religions (both living and dead), it's easy to which have been used the most to justify crimes against humanity. Islam and Judaism have nothing on Christianity when it comes to imperialistic expansion. But when it comes to cruelty, all three are guilty of harboring wicked histories of torture and inquisition.

    Consider, on the other hand, the Sikhs. This is a 400 year old peaceful, equality loving, universal brotherhood religion that also has a lengthy military history. The Sikh's response to persecution by the Mughal Empire was to militarize and fight back. Sikhism is heavily associated with Indian warrior castes, and Sikhs were known to be fierce enemies, yet today they are easily one of the most peaceful, least violent religions, but because they pray differently and wear turbans, white extremists want to butcher them...

    So...I think violence just follows religion wherever it goes. Religion isn't necessarily violent, people are. Christianity isn't a violent religion, but it's been used to justify murder for two millenia.

    In fact it was used to justify murder yesterday. The irony of the recent attack in Wisconsin isn't lost on me, nor is the increase in violence against Sikhs since 9/11.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 8/06/2012 11:43pm at .
  8. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 12:06am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Now hold on a second, McClaw. Didn't the Vikings believe that if you didn't die in battle, you couldn't get in the cool part of the afterlife?

    (Fair warning, all I know about Vikings I learned from Marvel Comics, select writings of Robert Howard, and movies starring Antonio Banderas)
    This is true. But they didn't wage religious war in the "hey, those guys have false gods so we gotta go **** 'em up" sense. It was pretty much always about taking bitches' gold and pure, innocent joy of burning down villages.
    The Vikings were sort of a bunch of fucks.
    It also bears noting that sea-raiders and berserks and such were generally on the outskirts of their own society, and did not seem to be well-liked by their Thor-fearing conservative stay-at-home-on-the-farm pagan counterparts.
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  9. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 12:28am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well ain't this a fucking can of worms.
    To quote someone else here (and paraphrase him at the same time)
    "Good men will do good things, and bad men will do bad things, but to get a good man to do a bad thing, you need religion." - Weinberg

    In my view, the world does not benefit from religion, it does not need religion. As a species we have evolved past ignorant acceptance of the 'teachings of our ancestors' when it comes to a foundational scientific understanding of a heliocentric solar system. Even the pope acknowledged Darwin's theory of evolution.

    Therefore, why replace the faculty of reason with dogmatic superstition? I say that people begin wars and cause suffering for a multitude of reasons (and un-reasons) and if they belong to a religious sect, that simply becomes the cloak they hide behind. Whether or not they have vehement conviction in the 'holiness' of their actions, is beside the point. obviously some will, and and some won't.

    Whether or not religion is causally related to wars imo, isn't even important. Or rather, we don't need to make a case that religion causes wars to know that it causes suffering all around the world. Not only is religion harmful, it lacks utility.

    What use does our modern secular society have for religion?

    All I see is a cloak that provides justification to deny human rights. Get rid of it.
  10. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 2:49am


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it’s pretty hard to know what the Vikings believed, exactly. Not only is it a religion that’s been dead for a thousand years, it’s also one that left almost no contemporary written records. (I’ve seen quite a few runestones, and one thing they all have in common is that there isn’t really room for much writing—and most of it amounts to “In memory of/in the honour of/for the good luck and fortune of So-and-so who travelled to Such-and-such a place”.) We do have plenty of writings relating to the Norse religion from Snorri Sturlusson &c., but I believe that was all written down a couple of centuries into the Christianisation of Scandinavia (I think Snorri advocated the idea that the Norse gods were the eventual development of stories of famous kings and warriors). Thus, even people who don’t buy into silly pop culture notions of Vikings with horned helmets and what not still rely on pictures painted by people who weren’t really there.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
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