Assult Rifle?

**Devil** · Posted On: 8/08/2012 3:56pm

Originally Posted by TEA

While you are generally right with regards to the superficial nature of the AWB, technically you are incorrect with regards to the M1A. The M1A is Springfield Armory Inc.'s semi automatic only copy of the M14, which is select fire capable (though most were configured for semi automatic fire only), gas operated shoulder fired weapon with a detachable box magazine capable of holding 20 rounds, which was designed by the original Springfield Armory as the intended replacement for the M1 rifle, M1 carbine, BAR, M1 Thompson and M3 grease guns. There are other semi-auto only copies of the M14 using Elmer Balance's receiver design (i.e. no selector lug on the receiver and a modified disconnector notch on the receiver patterned after the one on the M1 Rifle) that use variations of the term "M14" for their rifles. However, none of them were really designed for war but all of them would run afoul of the old AWB and be designed as "assault weapons" (and still do in California and Massachusetts) because the standard design had more than one "evil feature" in addition to the detachable box magazine - a flash suppressor and a bayonet lug. Grind the bayonet lug off or make a flash suppressor without a bayonet lug and it is no longer an "assault weapon" under the old ban.

I'm familiar with the history of the M14 / M1A. I guess I just disagree that the M1A wasn't designed for war. Take an M14, make it semiauto only. No longer designed for war? It's just a matter of perspective I suppose. I would view the M16 / AR-15 the same way.

And maybe I'm not getting your point regarding AWB criteria. I don't really see where your point differs from mine.

**TEA** · Posted On: 8/08/2012 4:17pm

Since Elmer Balance designed the M1A after the 1969 GCA and never marketed it to or intended to sell it to the military, it was always designed for the civilian market. This may be a small point, but it is one that I think is important with regards to the AWB, since the heart of the argument by the proponents of this law and similar measures is that the firearms that they are attempting to ban should be banned because they are designed for the military and not for civilians.

As far as the features on the M1A that make it a so-called "assault weapon" under the old law, you stated that as is from the factory it is kosher but only adding a collapsible stock or pistol grip stock would make it run afoul of the ban. I was attempting to point out how ridiculous the ban was by showing that in its original factory configuration it did run afoul of the ban unless one removed the bayonet lug. I did forget that California and Hawai'i (not sure about Massachusetts) have laws stricter than the original AWB and M14 type semi-auto only civilian rifles can not have the flash suppressor, either. Hence in the TV series Lost, all of the M14s have muzzle brakes.

**Devil** · Posted On: 8/08/2012 4:26pm

Originally Posted by TEA

Since Elmer Balance designed the M1A after the 1969 GCA and never marketed it to or intended to sell it to the military, it was always designed for the civilian market. This may be a small point, but it is one that I think is important with regards to the AWB, since the heart of the argument by the proponents of this law and similar measures is that the firearms that they are attempting to ban should be banned because they are designed for the military and not for civilians.

As far as the features on the M1A that make it a so-called "assault weapon" under the old law, you stated that as is from the factory it is kosher but only adding a collapsible stock or pistol grip stock would make it run afoul of the ban. I was attempting to point out how ridiculous the ban was by showing that in its original factory configuration it did run afoul of the ban unless one removed the bayonet lug. I did forget that California and Hawai'i (not sure about Massachusetts) have laws stricter than the original AWB and M14 type semi-auto only civilian rifles can not have the flash suppressor, either. Hence in the TV series Lost, all of the M14s have muzzle brakes.

Okay, I see your point about the designed for military use aspect. Although, on a separate note, I don't think gun advocates should take up that argument. That's just agreeing to fight on the enemy's turf. I think our argument should be that we need those weapons, some of which may be of military design for reasons X, Y and Z.

And for the sake of clarity - in my paragraph about the M1A, I was referring to public perception about what an assault weapon is, not what the actual criteria were for the AWB.

**TEA** · Posted On: 8/08/2012 5:19pm

Originally Posted by Devil

And for the sake of clarity - in my paragraph about the M1A, I was referring to public perception about what an assault weapon is, not what the actual criteria were for the AWB.

Point taken.

**MarJoe** · Posted On: 8/08/2012 7:31pm

TEA and Devil that was point of my post. A term invented by the anti-gunners to scare the informed public. By the way, my M14 , I used in Viet Namhad selective fire. No one could keep the M14 froming to the sky on full auto. One of the reasons it was replaced by the M16.The m14 and variants have never been relased for public sale. The M14 is back as a sniper rifle , re-barreled and scope mounted for sniping secpial ops. Joe

**TEA** · Posted On: 8/08/2012 10:10pm

Actually, the DCM (original version of the CMP) released a very small number of M14s to the public just prior to the '69 GCA, but they are as rare as hen's teeth. Most of the M14s had been modified by welding the selector lug to permanently disable the select fire function and then had an "M" for "match" engraved behind the M14, but an even smaller number had been purpose build without the selector lug at Springfield Armory and roll stamped M14NM with the intent that they be distributed via the DCM to state rifle teams and civilians. Again, very very few of these actually made it to civilian hands and the program was scrapped with the passage of the GCA.

How did you find the M14 for short burst of full auto? I have a friend on the M14 forum in Las Vegas with a full auto M1A (SA Inc. made a very small number prior to the 1986 ban on production or importation of new machine guns for sale to civilians) and I got to fire it once while visiting. He has it set up like an M14E2, with detachable muzzle brake, bi-pod, E2 pistol grip stock with folding fore end pistol grip. I found that I could consistently stay on target on a man size target at about 400 to 500 yards with three round bursts. I wouldn't have won any marksmanship contests, but seems like fairly reasonable accuracy for a squad automatic weapon. I dumped on mag on a single full auto string and only the first three stayed on target. However, the rifle didn't turn into an anti-aircraft gun after that and I was able to keep all the rounds in the general vicinity of the target rock. Of course, the E2 configuration most likely helped quite a bit in terms of taming the 14 on full auto, with the added weight of the muzzle brake and bipod and being able to use the forward pistol grip to really pull the rifle into my shoulder.

**MarJoe** · Posted On: 8/10/2012 2:55pm

Tea, the stock M-14 on full auto would climb to the sky. I was trading gunsights with a Ghinese .30 crew served machine gun. The distance was about 300 yards across the patty.I would hold or sight picture at 30 yards from the hut and let the M14 climb into the hut. After 300 rounds (No short bursts) . No fire was coming from the hut. Joe