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  1. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2012 2:03pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Styygens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Did you mention BSG?
    Yeah...! With cannons...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    To be honest, I'd been wondering exactly the same thing: On what basis are we questioning the legitimacy of Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, and Shinden Fudo Ryu?
    I think on the basis of no basis. I mean, because -by now- there are so much questions, some answers are required and nobody has responded yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    But I gave Oniwaban the benefit of the doubt; with so much questionable about this history, there's no reason to take anything at face value.
    I think it do not have any value. This are just speculations made by the intent to put together lots of different pieces of informations that can fit into the holes that the Takamatsuden story has. Japanese people simply do not tell, so we have to argue with what we already have. Just for having something more realistic than a legend, that could respond in some way to those so many questions.

    And thank you for the benefit of the doubt. I think we are getting something quite reasonable, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    As a result, this has been one of the best Takamatsuden threads in a long time.
    Thank you very much for that. I am having a good time and learning so much with you guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    First, I too have a hard time believing Takamatsu created not one, but several different systems. Why bother? Why not just make one? My suspicion is that he did have a starting point and embellished. The question then is, how much embellishment is there? What were his motives? Why more than one system? Why "ninjutsu"? (I have the romantic idea that he did have a collection of legitimate ninjutsu training methods from somewhere that he revived, expanded and reorganized into Togakure Ryu -- but this is pure and utter speculation on my part.)
    I think that this is the same thing that artists have. Takamatsu was a very creative man and he made-up Ryu-ha as a music composer makes new music, so in some way, he got new matterial and he could not stop when he met Hatsumi. In fact, Hatsumi is also a very creative man, and in this case we can appreciate at first hand how he was changing his creations to the extent that he has changing his point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Second, even if Takamatsu had a starting point, that doesn't mean the history presented to us is accurate. As other here have suggested, it is equally possible he preserved some Chinese tradition and tacked on a Japanese history.
    In the first middle of the 20th century was easier to tell fantastic stories to people, who in that time was more naive and eager to know fantastic things, but in few decades the world changed to much so now people need proves for any statement. Now we have this scientific-historians, new archaeologist technology, world-wide instant communications and much more. Now everybody have access to information and doubt (as I do) when can not get it well. So, in 50 years the original (and by then, credible) Takamatsuden story are as outdated as fairy tales are for the now-a-days kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Third, what about the other two Kukishin systems you mention? Because the Kuki family heads at least one of them, and they take issue with the "Takamatsu as savior" story. I also wonder where this story really started; Takamatsu, Hatsumi, Hayes??? I suspect it is a serious miscommunication of the truth. I also think this example of the "Telephone Game" in which the story gets garbled demonstrates why we need to ask more questions about the Takamatsuden history.
    What I have in mind about the Kuki family Ryu-ha is that their main line still exist and its actual name is "Kukishinden Tenshi Hyoho". They have their living Soke, they are practicing their -real- stuff, and they have some outside -genuine- Dojos:



    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    My point? I have a lot more questions than I do answers. And any time I seem to get an answer, I have more questions. Hence the metaphor of the "Takamatsuden Spaghetti"; following one strand just makes a sloppy mess.
    I see this more as a puzzle and I am trying to put all the pieces in a place. I think all the good information is scattered and it have to put it all together in one place.

    But your Takamatsuden Spaghetti metaphor makes me remember a joke that tell about a crazy guy in a hospital playing with a ball of string, so a nurse saw him so buzzy and finally ask him:

    -"What are you doing?"
    -"I am trying to find the other end of the string."
    -"Let me help you with that."
    -"O.K."

    Ten minutes later the nurse found the other end and show it to the man and with a satisfaction smile, said:

    -"Here it is...!"

    But the man replied:

    -"Nop. That is not...! The one I am looking for is shorter...!"

    Very Takamatsuden related. Right?

    Tanks for posting.
    Last edited by Oniwaban; 9/02/2012 2:12pm at .
  2. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2012 2:41pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi baby_cart.

    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    sorry, all I know is that chosui is the same as kijin chosui ryu, another style that takamatsu taught.
    Can you tell me more about all the styles that Takamatsu taught?


    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    and about the unsui name, you're about a decade too late, manaka-sensei had a 'spotlight' on the e-budo forum years ago. it was better to ask him there.
    What I got about the Unsui name is that the kanji that compose the name are "cloud" and "water" so there are represented in the Jinenkan logo with the three kanji of "Ji-nen-kan", a cloud with three levels and a water representation with three waves. I also know that this name is used by budist monks and means something very special for them.

    What I was wondering had to do with the speculation about is the name that Manaka chose had to do with his desertion from the Bujinkan, maybe because a deseption or somethin like that.

    I would like to know about the 'spotlight' that you mention. Where can I find it?

    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    re:gikan

    there was a squabble over this ryu decades ago, word is that hatsumi wasn't the official soke of this and now it's passed on to tanemura. considering the 'coincidences' I've posted before, it does make one think why hatsumi might want to claim this ryu.
    Well, I know about a trial that Tanemura started against Hatsumi and I understand that Tanemura won it, so that is why Hatsumi is not teaching Gikan-ryu any more. I understand that this can be confirmed by looking in the japanese justice departament archives, that have public access, but only in Japan I think.

    What I do not know about Gikan-ryu are technical matters. I just know that is a Koppo (jutsu) Ryu-ha. Nothing else.

    Do you have more related information?

    Thanks for posting.
  3. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2012 5:00pm


     Style: Ninjutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Did you mention BSG?





    Gundam? meh.



    To be honest, I'd been wondering exactly the same thing: On what basis are we questioning the legitimacy of Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, and Shinden Fudo Ryu? But I gave Oniwaban the benefit of the doubt; with so much questionable about this history, there's no reason to take anything at face value. As a result, this has been one of the best Takamatsuden threads in a long time.



    So what? Even if this is undeniably true (and many on the site would disagree), all that means is that it is a solid system, not that the history we've been told is accurate.



    Watch Out!

    Claiming something is "combat effective" on this site is begging for someone to ask you to prove that statement.



    No, it isn't. In nearly 20-years of training in Booj under many different teachers, I have never been taught to use Hicho as a shin check. Which isn't to say the motion couldn't be used this way, merely that it does not appear to be used this way traditionally. I am not aware of any Gyokko Ryu kata that models this use. If you are, please let me know and I'll compare against my notes and talk to my teachers.

    And as a 40-year-old sometimes accused of LARPing, I say to you, "sticks and stones..." :tongue:



    First, I too have a hard time believing Takamatsu created not one, but several different systems. Why bother? Why not just make one? My suspicion is that he did have a starting point and embellished. The question then is, how much embellishment is there? What were his motives? Why more than one system? Why "ninjutsu"? (I have the romantic idea that he did have a collection of legitimate ninjutsu training methods from somewhere that he revived, expanded and reorganized into Togakure Ryu -- but this is pure and utter speculation on my part.)

    Second, even if Takamatsu had a starting point, that doesn't mean the history presented to us is accurate. As other here have suggested, it is equally possible he preserved some Chinese tradition and tacked on a Japanese history.

    Third, what about the other two Kukishin systems you mention? Because the Kuki family heads at least one of them, and they take issue with the "Takamatsu as savior" story. I also wonder where this story really started; Takamatsu, Hatsumi, Hayes??? I suspect it is a serious miscommunication of the truth. I also think this example of the "Telephone Game" in which the story gets garbled demonstrates why we need to ask more questions about the Takamatsuden history.

    My point? I have a lot more questions than I do answers. And any time I seem to get an answer, I have more questions. Hence the metaphor of the "Takamatsuden Spaghetti"; following one strand just makes a sloppy mess.

    BTW, welcome to Bullshido.
    Thanks for the welcome.

    You are correct, there are no formal katas within Gyokko Ryu that use Hicho in that manner, but I have always viewed the kamae as dynamic/shape shifting armor that has both strengths and weaknesses [ kuken ] to be exploited or used as traps.

    So despite it not being laid out that way, it functions none the less, who knows maybe samurai/shinobi weren't facing hordes of Cro Cops and thus never thought to use it that way? Nah, the people who developed the Ryu-Ha were very intelligent and I believe certain things are done in a certain way so they can flow and be useful in other ways than just the blatantly obvious.

    Ok, enough about that and back to the main topic here. I'm not hating on the topic of questioning the past of the art, I was just curious as to what sparked it outside of the lineage disputes.

    I remember the first time I suspected something was up when I was in highschool, reading the Essence of Ninjutsu, the opening of that book is all these short stories of "Takamatsu" but with four or five different nicknames. He seems to have this insane legacy of battles at an early age yet it's a different name he utilized every time. It just seemed very odd.
  4. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2012 9:59pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigatron View Post
    Thanks for the welcome.

    You are correct, there are no formal katas within Gyokko Ryu that use Hicho in that manner, but I have always viewed the kamae as dynamic/shape shifting armor that has both strengths and weaknesses [ kuken ] to be exploited or used as traps.

    So despite it not being laid out that way, it functions none the less, who knows maybe samurai/shinobi weren't facing hordes of Cro Cops and thus never thought to use it that way? Nah, the people who developed the Ryu-Ha were very intelligent and I believe certain things are done in a certain way so they can flow and be useful in other ways than just the blatantly obvious.
    Well, I've already agreed with you that Hicho (or some variation) could be used as a shin check against a round kick. It probably should be taught that way these days too.

    But I'm afraid that use is really an accident of similar form rather than an intended use. It's not catalogued as a strategy, tactic, or technique in the kata, so it's not part of the Gyokko Ryu. I think you're more on track with the comment that they weren't "facing hordes of Cro Cops." It's my understanding that round kicks aren't all that common in unarmed Japanese systems of a certain vintage (Pre-World War II, and Meiji Era or older). Round kicks certainly aren't common within the various Booj ryuha. I'd have to look to be sure, but I don't think they even appear as techniques in the Ten Chi Jin no Maki. If they do, they aren't emphasized. I think it highly unlikely the proverbial "they" would develop a defense to an unknown attack.

    Of course, what makes this interesting and of relevance to this thread is that round and circular kicks are known in Chinese systems... Which the Gyokko Ryu bears some relationship with, either in far history, or if it is a collection of techniques Takamatsu picked up in his travels. Curiouser and curiouser...


    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken

  5. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 1:45am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oniwaban, please don't misquote my words. I said "Momochi Sandayu" is a fictional name, not that the Momochi were. Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu is the only real ninja that was listed in Gyokko ryu/Koto ryu. The name "Momochi Sandayu" does NOT appear in any history records; only children's books. Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu was a real ninja during the Warring States. I state this because his name, along with Tozawa Hakuunsai, is used in the lineages, and they didn't even exist historically! Not only that, Hakuunsai was a Koka in the Sasuke novels. So it seems that a lot of Takamatsu's lineage came from children's books that were popular when he was a kid. Not only that, but if you read the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, his entire lineage in Togakure ryu is made up of ninja from many different lineages. He has some Koka listed, some fictional characters, the 11 Best Iga ninja that are listed in Bansenshukai, and several members of the Natori family of Kishu ninja.

    I will gladly admit that I'm with Styygens in that I believe in the possibility that Takamatsu didn't completely make up Togakure ryu; that there was a Togakure ryu historically that was revived by him. Trouble is, it would not actually be situated in Iga, but would have been trained by Takeda Shingen's ninja in Nagano, as Togakushi would have been in the control of the Takeda family during the Warring states. In short, it should look more like the ninjutsu in the Bansenshukai, but with some horsemanship, because Takeda's ninja used more horsemanship than many other ninja facilities. There's even some alternate histories of "Togakushi ryu" outside the Bujinkan in that Yamamoto Kansuke, author of the Rodanshu and Takeda's right hand man, trained the Nishina family or created Togakushi ryu himself. Considering how ninjutsu itself wasn't developed until after the North-Southern Courts period, I honestly think this is the correct history, IF Togakure ryu existed.
    Last edited by SpamN'Cheese; 9/03/2012 1:48am at . Reason: Spelling errors and shit
  6. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 3:18am


     Style: Ninjutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Well, I've already agreed with you that Hicho (or some variation) could be used as a shin check against a round kick. It probably should be taught that way these days too.

    But I'm afraid that use is really an accident of similar form rather than an intended use. It's not catalogued as a strategy, tactic, or technique in the kata, so it's not part of the Gyokko Ryu. I think you're more on track with the comment that they weren't "facing hordes of Cro Cops." It's my understanding that round kicks aren't all that common in unarmed Japanese systems of a certain vintage (Pre-World War II, and Meiji Era or older). Round kicks certainly aren't common within the various Booj ryuha. I'd have to look to be sure, but I don't think they even appear as techniques in the Ten Chi Jin no Maki. If they do, they aren't emphasized. I think it highly unlikely the proverbial "they" would develop a defense to an unknown attack.

    Of course, what makes this interesting and of relevance to this thread is that round and circular kicks are known in Chinese systems... Which the Gyokko Ryu bears some relationship with, either in far history, or if it is a collection of techniques Takamatsu picked up in his travels. Curiouser and curiouser...
    If I were to take an educated guess I would say there are some threads of truth in Gyokko Ryu's supposed history of being created in China and then refined in Japan.

    The whole Ryu is outrageously designed to be utilized by a smaller/weaker person. [ circling to gain access to weak points to avoid head on confrontation, hitting vital kyushos to disable the opponent's muscle usage ]. Doesn't sound very Japanese does it? The Japanese tend to embrace head on confrontation in war/combat strategies from ancient to modern [ Pearl Harbor ] and strength is something that is considered to be worthwhile [ forms of karate, obsession with sumo wrestling ].

    Koto and Gyokko are so different in that aspect it's hilarious.

    So either A: You're right and he just used some Chinese skill sets he acquired while in China to design the Ryu, or it could very well be one of the oldest and possibly one of the only authentic Ryu in the Xkans.

    Either way, it's one of my favorites.

    Also, Spam is correct, Momochi Sandayu is a fake name used in ninja fiction. It's a place holder for a real ninja who may have had up to three identities. I believe one of his homes still exists today in Japan and is one of the only ones to display hidden compartments in the walls/flooring for escape and concealment.
  7. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 5:15am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes. The Momochi house in Nabari, Mie. Only remnants of Tanba Yasumitsu is some old family scrolls and armour. And I agree; I love Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu. They're one of my four favorite Takamatsu-den arts.
  8. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 5:22am


     Style: Ninjutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Yes. The Momochi house in Nabari, Mie. Only remnants of Tanba Yasumitsu is some old family scrolls and armour. And I agree; I love Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu. They're one of my four favorite Takamatsu-den arts.
    Yeah that's the one. I couldn't remember the name of it.

    Also, glad to meet a fellow Gyokko enthusiast, if you ever wanna discuss strategies or kuden [ technique principal/theory ], hit me up.
  9. baby_cart is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 12:28pm


     Style: ex-BJJ, ex-TKD

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Gundam? meh.

    bull. only such AWESOMENESS can exist IN THE REAL WORLD






    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi baby_cart.

    Well, I think that Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu are different because the vision, the strategy and the purpose of each one.

    yes, they are different. but to say that gyokko is/seems complete(which is gigatron's post, by the way) is to disregard the creation of koto. and that is the substance of my previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi baby_cart.

    Can you tell me more about all the styles that Takamatsu taught?
    not much. there is another style, the shinkengata tora no maki, which has similarities with kukishin dakentaijutsu in its kata names and densho format, AFAIK.

    back when kutaki was open publicly(I don't have an account, don't plan on making one), there was a big hullaboo about a supposed criticism on that certain ryu's performance during a 1920's embu. that thread royally pissed off the mod at e-budo. whether that poster was for real or just trolling, I dunno.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post


    What I got about the Unsui name is that the kanji that compose the name are "cloud" and "water" so there are represented in the Jinenkan logo with the three kanji of "Ji-nen-kan", a cloud with three levels and a water representation with three waves. I also know that this name is used by budist monks and means something very special for them.

    What I was wondering had to do with the speculation about is the name that Manaka chose had to do with his desertion from the Bujinkan, maybe because a deseption or somethin like that.

    I would like to know about the 'spotlight' that you mention. Where can I find it?
    here. please remember that it's closed already. :tongue:

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=51

    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post

    Well, I know about a trial that Tanemura started against Hatsumi and I understand that Tanemura won it, so that is why Hatsumi is not teaching Gikan-ryu any more. I understand that this can be confirmed by looking in the japanese justice departament archives, that have public access, but only in Japan I think.

    What I do not know about Gikan-ryu are technical matters. I just know that is a Koppo (jutsu) Ryu-ha. Nothing else.

    Do you have more related information?

    Thanks for posting.
    again, not much. but LOOKING at the similarities, one would wildly speculate now, wouldn't they? :Hehehe:
  10. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 1:58pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Oniwaban, please don't misquote my words. I said "Momochi Sandayu" is a fictional name, not that the Momochi were.
    I believe that -in my words- I said the same thing that you told before:

    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    In first place I thought that Takamatsu could made-up all Gyokko-ryu but then a friend told that this Ryu-ha can be traced unless to the Momochi family, but then another friend told that Momochi Sandayu is a fictional name and explained the why and the how of that.
    I apologize if I bothered you in some manner. By the way, I really appreciate all the information that you are sharing here with us.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu is the only real ninja that was listed in Gyokko ryu/Koto ryu. The name "Momochi Sandayu" does NOT appear in any history records; only children's books. Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu was a real ninja during the Warring States. I state this because his name, along with Tozawa Hakuunsai, is used in the lineages, and they didn't even exist historically! Not only that, Hakuunsai was a Koka in the Sasuke novels. So it seems that a lot of Takamatsu's lineage came from children's books that were popular when he was a kid. Not only that, but if you read the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, his entire lineage in Togakure ryu is made up of ninja from many different lineages. He has some Koka listed, some fictional characters, the 11 Best Iga ninja that are listed in Bansenshukai, and several members of the Natori family of Kishu ninja.
    Did you have a copy of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten where mentions Togakure-ryu? I would like to see the part where the editor says that Togakure-ryu came from a fairy tale (or something like that).

    Can you tell me what is Kishu ninja?


    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    I will gladly admit that I'm with Styygens in that I believe in the possibility that Takamatsu didn't completely make up Togakure ryu; that there was a Togakure ryu historically that was revived by him.
    I agree with you in this: When I said that Takamatsu was a Densho collector and he probably he got some Ninpo information from books and other documents, that -as you are saying- could be authentic Togakure-ryu information that Takamatsu blended-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Trouble is, it would not actually be situated in Iga, but would have been trained by Takeda Shingen's ninja in Nagano, as Togakushi would have been in the control of the Takeda family during the Warring states. In short, it should look more like the ninjutsu in the Bansenshukai, but with some horsemanship, because Takeda's ninja used more horsemanship than many other ninja facilities.
    This is very interesting. I have a digital version of the Bansenshukai but is in -old- japanese (I think), so I do not understand anything. Did you know about some english version of it?

    Can you tell more about Togakushi? Is Togakushi a name for a person or a region?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    There's even some alternate histories of "Togakushi ryu" outside the Bujinkan in that Yamamoto Kansuke, author of the Rodanshu and Takeda's right hand man, trained the Nishina family or created Togakushi ryu himself. Considering how ninjutsu itself wasn't developed until after the North-Southern Courts period, I honestly think this is the correct history, IF Togakure ryu existed.
    It looks like Takamatsu was indeed a Densho-rescuer-man.

    Can you tell more about those Togakushi-ryu stories outside Bujinkan?

    Thanks for posting.
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