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  1. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2012 2:18am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    Well, It seems that you are a very documented person, so I just wanted to know your opinion on the Toda thing into this paradox. What could you wonder about, you know...

    I agree with you on that Ninjutsu is a very tricky thing. About Ninjutsu-&-Bujutsu I understand Ninjutsu in three places: In first place, as you are a FBI or CIA agent; in second places as you are a Seal or a Marine soldier, and in third place as you use the Ninjutsu term as a label for Jujutsu or any other fighting style. The third one is the most common use now-a-days. That is why Ninjusu is very misunderstood. Would it be correct understand it in that way?

    Thank you for posting.
    No, not in any way. Ninjutsu has some "fighting tricks", no doubt. But it does not include sections of how to sword fight; Only things like, "you should learn kenjutsu", that kind of thing. Best way someone I know put it: ninjutsu would be sneaking into your home, killing you, raping your wife, then burning the whole house and making it look like an accident. Martial arts would be the actual fighting itself.
  2. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2012 3:57pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    This may be a semantic disagreement, but I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that ninjutsu is not a bujutsu. It was my understanding that bujutsu included all martial skills, not just those directly applicable to fighting. So schools of swimming in armor, military horsemanship, strategy (heiho), siege engineering, etc. all counted as bujutsu. So why wouldn't espionage skills count?

    Also, your point about Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu (and likewise your implication with Hattori Hanzo Masanari) being samurai is interesting. Are you drawing a bright line that says samurai could not be "ninja" as well? I'm of the school of thought that the rigid dichotomy between samurai and ninja is not true. Although this too may get into a semantic issue over the definition of "ninja." Since it is unlikely that many (if any) historical ninja resembled the stereotypical image we have today, that's understandable. I'm prepared to believe many (but maybe not all) spymasters and unconventional fighters of the samurai class would fall under a broad definition of ninja. Whether or not anyone self-identified as a "ninja" (or pick your contemporary term) is an interesting question.

    Like I said, I think we're working from different ideas and definitions. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.
    Hi, Styygens. Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    I think that you two guys are talking about the same thing. I mean that I understand the same thing about Ninjutsu and Bujutsu that you two just said.

    Please, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that Bujutsu is a total concept and Ninjutsu is part of it. Into Bujutsu are differents skills like, kenjutsu, sojutsu, jujutsu, kyujutsu, ninjutsu, etc.

    About Ninjutsu, I understand it as a "secret skill". I mean, like the things that you do in a secret mission. In fact, I understand "Nin" (of Ninjutsu) as "secret" because the "invisible" part of the concept that have, so for me "Ninja" ("nin" secret, and "ja" person) is just a "secret agent".

    I also think that Ninja and Samurai can be the same thing. I mean, when you are a Samurai and have to do a secret mission you have to do Ninjutsu, so that makes you a Ninja, unless for a while. There was also skilled persons in Ninjutsu, as well there was other persons skilled in fire-arms or katana, so you could call "Ninja" to that spy specialist as now a days they are in government organizations and other places.

    I look this like: Ninjutsu is Bujutsu, but Bujutsu is not Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is secret Bujutsu. Bujutsu is a total concept. Ninjutsu is a part of Bujutsu. Ninja do fight but that do not make him/her a soldier. Ninja is a Spy that know how to fight (like almost all japanese in that time).

    What do you guys think about this?

    Thak you for posting.
  3. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2012 7:31pm


     

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    Bugei Jūhappan and terminology

    Is nobody familiar with the Bugei Jūhappan (武芸十八般)?

    According to dictionary.goo.ne.jp, this is a Sino-Japanese term with two definitions, the first describing the 18 military arts considered essential to warriors in their day, including skill with the bow, horse riding, spear, sword, swimming, sword-drawing, dagger, jitte/jutte, shuriken, fukumibari (throat needle), glaive, torite (arresting or otherwise aggressive techniques unarmed or with small arms), matchlock rifle, jujutsu, six foot staff, sickle-and-chain, mojiri (polearms used to restrain), and shinobi. The second usage of the term is just as a catch-all for such arts, and the list does appear to vary by source.

    In short, I think a historic term like this should put the question of "Ninja vs. Samurai" to rest, at least in that members of the warrior caste couldn't somehow be involved in intelligence.

    An interesting detail of this entry was how it wrote shinobi as " 隠". I've also seen "隠形". IIRC, "ninjutsu" as a term is rather new, and "shinobi" is only one of many terms used to describe espionage agents in the warring states period (either Tatsumi Ryu or Katori Shinto Ryu uses "monomi" to describe such teachings).

    I bring it up because the tendency to gloss over subtle differences in vocabulary can be problematic in these discussions. For example, there are many terms for unarmed grappling; even in modern Japanese, people may refer to kumiuchi, yawaragi, torite with what is more recently a catch-all term in jujutsu, but there are important semantic differences here, which are reflected in the technical parameters of such skills.

    In the same way, asking a very general question about all "ninjutsu" could mean asking many questions about whatever arts might fall under the umbrella of such a term.
    Last edited by DARPAChief; 8/31/2012 7:36pm at .
  4. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2012 10:11pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    That's ok. At least as far as Stephen Hayes goes... No one else does either. All I can tell you for sure is that he's on speaking terms with a handful of the oldest Bujinkan shihan in the US. The relationship between Hayes and Hatsumi is a mystery to me, and frankly it's their business. Hayes has definitely gone his own way in terms of training and teaching.



    It should be obvious. You'll have to research this by respectfully approaching the different Takamatsuden and X-Kans and finding teachers willing to explain what they do. It will be up to you to compare and contrast. Fortunately, there are a number of books available now that can help baseline the Bujinkan ryuha and kata.

    This one should be helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Unarmed-Fighti...atsumi+masaaki
    and you might find this series useful too:
    http://www.amazon.com/Togakure-Bujin...ef=pd_sim_b_25

    But only old fashioned networking and research is going to get you access to what the other branches are training.

    And we're back to my point about the Takamatsuden Spaghetti -- the more you pull on one noodle, the bigger the mess you make. If you're asking questions about the Takamatsuden schools, you can't avoid the Takamatsuden organizations. You need to thoroughly understand what they say is their own history first. I understand you're looking for verification of the schools (esp. Shindenfudo Ryu) apart from Takamatsu. It seems logical. But even if Takamatsu's claims are legit, it's possible there is no independent line of the schools still in existence for you to check against. Not all koryu schools survived to the modern day. Dozens, if not hundreds, are extinct, or exist only as densho.

    I think it is likely that Takamatsu fibbed about his lineage even in the case of legitimate schools. Assuming Toda didn't exist, Takamatsu might have attributed a legitimate Shindenfudo Ryu training to Toda to help bolster his claims that Togakure Ryu existed. Mixing lies with truth is a classic way to enhance the crediblity of lies. Why, it's the kind of trick a ninja might use... :Smile2:
    Hi Styygens.

    Thank you for the books recomendations. Very illustrative stuff. But when Hatsumi says in his "Unarmed Fighting Arts of The Samurai" that his book can be seen as "the Bible of the martial arts" was to much for me.

    Togakure-ryu? Good stuff. I like it. But I will like it more with the true story on it.

    I think that Takamatsu made it up with lost of densho that he collected but he had to say that it was a Koryu because there was the beginning of the Meiji-era and Japan have changed to much so quick. What use can have Togakure-ryu before a window with glass or before a machine-gun? By that time Togakure-ryu was born obsolete. So the lineage excuse...

    Takamatsu had two real Menkyo Kaiden. That is all... He tried to make Kukishin-ryu Ninpo/Ninjutsu and got not Kuki family approval, so he created Togakure-ryu Ninpo. In the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten it stablished that Takamatsu made-up Togakure-ryu from his childhood plays. He always wanted to be a Ninja...

    I found a letter in a Bartitus forum where it says that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu had a Dojo and a Medical Clinic in Kobe by 1856 (if I remember well). But ther is no evidence of any of that in any historical record. I think that if Toda was a Doctor he could have some fame, some reputation, something... But they are not any record of... Nothing about him nowhere.

    Well, there is no Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu. There is Takamatsuden-ryu-ha. Gendai Budo...

    So, Takamatsu had this first students that got from him his real Menkyo Kaiden and his Menkyo and Sokeship of his creations (Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu), that begins from what he learned in China combinated with his japanese knowledges (and maybe could be real forgotten densho that he gave into life).

    But later Hatsumi came up, they become very good friends and Hatsumi also wanted to be a Soke. Takamatsu tried to create Kukishin-ryu Ninpo/Ninjutsu but got no succes and then Togakure-ryu appears. Hatsumi was the Omote Soke and Fukumoto was the Ura Soke. So Hatsumi is only Soke of Togakure-ryu because the other titles that Takamatsu gave him were made-up with this "daken-tai-jutsu" and "ju-tai-jutsu" concepts in it. The real Menkyo Kaiden have traditional and historical concepts like "Jujutsu" or "Kenpo" but wich Hatsumi were makeup.

    In hands of Hatsumi, Togakure-ryu have changed its name in just few decades: Togakure-ryu Ninpo, Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu, Togakure-ryu Ninpo Tai Jutsu. And now they are other "jutsu" depending on the name, like Togakure-ryu Bikenjutsu. In fact there are many names for this Ryu-ha and I really do not know wich one is the true one.

    The Togakure-ryu Ninja-to is in fact an O-wakizashi. The Teppan/Senban Shuriken (Shaken) is the same as the Kukishin-ryu. The Shukko are in fact a farm tool (to carry logs and other haavy things).

    The other Menkyo of this Ryu-ha are:

    Manaka Fumon, founder of the Jinenkan and Tanemura Shoto, founder of the Genbukan.

    Manaka Fumon are teaching his stuff with great care and he limited his declarations to "he teach what Hatsumi teached him" but he had to create an other school (Jinen-ryu) because there are so many stuff out of the densho that Hatsumi teached him, so he had to put them into a place. For example: Tantojutsu, Juttejutsu and Bikenjutsu.

    Tanemura Shoto left Hatsumi ten years earlier and he restarted learning all his Menkyo Kaiden with the others (and elder) students of Takamatsu, so he have double Menkyo Kaiden in many Takamatsuden-ryu-ha. It looks like he tried to re-legitimate his efforts and titles. Why? Because except Togakure-ryu what Hatsumi really have are not the things he claims he have. What Hastumi have are consolation prizes that Takamatsu gave him. Tanemura even got the other Togakure Ryu Menkyo Kaiden from Fukumoto.

    In the first times Hatsumi was training with his people wearing white Gi and doing Kukishin-ryu and Takagi-ryu stuff. He wrote good books and everything was well for a while. But then the Ninja Boom becomes and Adam Adams appeared to enterview Hatsumi "the Ninja Master" all because Takamatsu declarations. So Hatsumi changes his mind. For almost three decades Hatsumi will present him self as the 34 Soke of Togakure-ryu and that was not good inough for him. In 1995, the same year when Fukumoto passed away, he changed every thing. Now he wanted to be known as the Soke of nine different Ryu-ha and what he teaches is no more Ninpo-taijutsu but Budo-Taijutsu. Obviously he was tired about the Ninja thing and wanted to be known as a Samurai.

    He changes his diplomas three times: Togakure-ryu Ninpo, Bujinkan Ninpo-Taijutsu and Bujinkan Budo-Taijutsu. Evolution? Maybe... But not evidence of anything yet after five decades. Only the concepts changes: The Kama-Yari he called Ninja-Yari but now is Kama-Yari again. The Ninja-to have a fake name too: "Ninja" is a modern name, for God sake...! But he still claiming that his Ryu-ha have almost one thousand years old and the japanese Robin Hood was one of its Soke.

    For me, Togakure-ryu Ninpo/Ninjutsu is a "Ko-ryu style Gendai Budo" created by Takamatsu Toshitsugu in the first times of the Meiji-era, it was obsolete in its own time of creation but had a very cool and fantastic-fantasy-propaganda-story that people liked to much.

    About Takamatsuden and Hatsumi:

    The real thing is Kukishin-ryu and he have Kukishinden Happobiken. Some people named it as Kukishinden "Ryu" Happo Biken "Jutsu" (even he do) and there is also something like Kukishinden-ryu Daken-tai-jutsu but what is really Kukishin-ryu fighting style is Jujutsu. What he have from the Kuki family are very old densho about obsolete weapons like Bicento and Niobo. They gave him what was left in the drawer to create his branch.

    The real thing is Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu but what Hatsumi have is Takagi Yoshin-ryu Ju-tai-jutsu. The mix-party-combo with Asayama-ryu in it.

    The real thing is Shindenfudo-ryu Taijutsu (Jujutsu) and Shindenfudo-ryu Kenpo but what Hatsumi have is Shindenfudo-ryu Daken-tai-jutsu and Shindenfudo-ryu Ju-tai-jutsu.

    Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu and Koto-ryu Koppo are Takamatsuden Kenpo styles and Takamatsu already gave the Sokeship to his first student. What Hatsumi have are Menkyo Kaiden. Hatsumi names his Koto-ryu as Koppojutsu and I think that the Kosshijutsu thing is added too because the real name is Shitojutsu.

    Please, do not misunderstand me: That is very legit anyway. Takamatsu had the rights to do so. But is not what Hatsumi tell to people... He insists in his propaganda claims.

    That is what I have to say about Togakure-ryu

    I still searching about Shindenfudo-ryu and got some cool stuff that I will share in other post.

    Thank you for your recommendations and for posting.
  5. baby_cart is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2012 2:21am


     Style: ex-BJJ, ex-TKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Manaka Fumon, founder of the Jinenkan and Tanemura Shoto, founder of the Genbukan.
    minor correction. it's manaka FUMIO, not fumon. it may seem insignificant, but a single letter change to the surname (manaka -> tanaka) then it become TANAKA FUMON, another individual with connections to the takamatsu-den.

    anyways, AFAIK, he now prefers to be reffered to as manaka unsui. like tanemura tsunehisa to shoto, takamatsu toshitsugu to chosui and hatsumi yoshiaki to masaaki.



    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Thank you for the books recomendations. Very illustrative stuff. But when Hatsumi says in his "Unarmed Fighting Arts of The Samurai" that his book can be seen as "the Bible of the martial arts" was to much for me.

    Togakure-ryu? Good stuff. I like it. But I will like it more with the true story on it.

    I think that Takamatsu made it up with lost of densho that he collected but he had to say that it was a Koryu because there was the beginning of the Meiji-era and Japan have changed to much so quick. What use can have Togakure-ryu before a window with glass or before a machine-gun? By that time Togakure-ryu was born obsolete. So the lineage excuse...

    Takamatsu had two real Menkyo Kaiden. That is all... He tried to make Kukishin-ryu Ninpo/Ninjutsu and got not Kuki family approval, so he created Togakure-ryu Ninpo. In the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten it stablished that Takamatsu made-up Togakure-ryu from his childhood plays. He always wanted to be a Ninja...

    I found a letter in a Bartitus forum where it says that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu had a Dojo and a Medical Clinic in Kobe by 1856 (if I remember well). But ther is no evidence of any of that in any historical record. I think that if Toda was a Doctor he could have some fame, some reputation, something... But they are not any record of... Nothing about him nowhere.

    Well, there is no Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu. There is Takamatsuden-ryu-ha. Gendai Budo...

    So, Takamatsu had this first students that got from him his real Menkyo Kaiden and his Menkyo and Sokeship of his creations (Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu), that begins from what he learned in China combinated with his japanese knowledges (and maybe could be real forgotten densho that he gave into life).

    But later Hatsumi came up, they become very good friends and Hatsumi also wanted to be a Soke. Takamatsu tried to create Kukishin-ryu Ninpo/Ninjutsu but got no succes and then Togakure-ryu appears. Hatsumi was the Omote Soke and Fukumoto was the Ura Soke. So Hatsumi is only Soke of Togakure-ryu because the other titles that Takamatsu gave him were made-up with this "daken-tai-jutsu" and "ju-tai-jutsu" concepts in it. The real Menkyo Kaiden have traditional and historical concepts like "Jujutsu" or "Kenpo" but wich Hatsumi were makeup.

    In hands of Hatsumi, Togakure-ryu have changed its name in just few decades: Togakure-ryu Ninpo, Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu, Togakure-ryu Ninpo Tai Jutsu. And now they are other "jutsu" depending on the name, like Togakure-ryu Bikenjutsu. In fact there are many names for this Ryu-ha and I really do not know wich one is the true one.

    The Togakure-ryu Ninja-to is in fact an O-wakizashi. The Teppan/Senban Shuriken (Shaken) is the same as the Kukishin-ryu. The Shukko are in fact a farm tool (to carry logs and other haavy things).

    re:togakure ryu

    if you have a copy of a video of togakure ryu's santo tonso no gata, please compare this:

    http://www.dlmarket.jp/product_info....-RYU-SHODENSYA

    and about 0:05 of this video



    thoughts?
  6. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/01/2012 6:41am


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi Styygens.

    Thank you for the books recomendations. Very illustrative stuff. But when Hatsumi says in his "Unarmed Fighting Arts of The Samurai" that his book can be seen as "the Bible of the martial arts" was to much for me.
    You and me both.

    But I love some of his other hyperbolic quotes from recent books, such as the one in which he likens his Ninpo to a great dinosaur surfacing amid the Guinness-thick waters of a Scottish loch, or how we should go boldly into the future as if on the Space Battleship Yamato.




    He's putting us on.
  7. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2012 7:51am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    minor correction. it's manaka FUMIO, not fumon. it may seem insignificant, but a single letter change to the surname (manaka -> tanaka) then it become TANAKA FUMON, another individual with connections to the takamatsu-den.

    anyways, AFAIK, he now prefers to be reffered to as manaka unsui. like tanemura tsunehisa to shoto, takamatsu toshitsugu to chosui and hatsumi yoshiaki to masaaki.
    Hi baby_cart.

    Yes, you are right: I confused the names of Manaka Fumio (student of Hatsumi) with Tanaka Fumon (student of Ueno).

    And yes, they have changed their names as you say:

    Takamatsu Toshitsugu to Takamatsu Chosui.
    Hatsumi Yoshiaki to Hatsumi Masaaki.
    Manaka Fumio to Manaka Unsui.
    Tanemura Tsunehisa to Tanemura Shoto.

    Thank you for the observation.

    But, I have a question: I believe that the name "Chosui" was given from Takamatsu to Ueno. Do you know something about this?

    And another question: I believe that "Unsui" means something like " independent seeker of enlightenment", so I believe that this have something to do with the Hatsumi experience. A kind of response to him or something like that. What do you believe about this?

    Thank you for posting.A
  8. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2012 8:12am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    re:togakure ryu

    if you have a copy of a video of togakure ryu's santo tonso no gata, please compare this:

    http://www.dlmarket.jp/product_info....-RYU-SHODENSYA

    and about 0:05 of this video



    thoughts?
    Hi baby_cart.

    Wow! That makes me wonder a lot. I do not know so much about Gikan-ryu but this can blow out the mind of anyone. Another mix-part of the Togakure soup, perhaps?

    This make me remember that I forgot to tell about some old and cool ninjutsu books that the young Takamatsu may have reed. This old books was about Koga-ryu Ninjutsu and in fact they have chapters like "The Essence of Ninjutsu" in them. So that makes me wonder about that this Takamatsuden Iga-ryu really are a version of Koga-ryu stuff.

    Very interesting (and developer) video.

    Thank you very much.
  9. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2012 8:34am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    You and me both.

    But I love some of his other hyperbolic quotes from recent books, such as the one in which he likens his Ninpo to a great dinosaur surfacing amid the Guinness-thick waters of a Scottish loch, or how we should go boldly into the future as if on the Space Battleship Yamato.




    He's putting us on.
    Hi Styygens.

    I have spend all the five minutes waiting to see Hatsumi singing or/and dancing or maybe rolling through the corridors of the battleship wearing his ninja mask.

    You know how much he likes to be the center of atention...

    There is a maxim in the advertising industry that says: "You can talk good about or you can talk bad about but you have to talk about."

    Obviously he is making us talk about.

    Very refreshing video.

    Thanks for posting this.
  10. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/01/2012 9:28am


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's an unofficial rule here that we can't mention Yamato without a video. In fact, I fear my sad little video of the original artist singing the theme won't be sufficient. W.Rabbit should be along any moment to post a video of the Yamato firing the Wave Motion Gun.
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