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  1. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2012 6:13pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    IIRC = "if I remember correctly".
    Hi, DdlR.

    Thank you very much.
  2. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 4:01am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi, SpamN'Cheese.



    How could this be that way? I mean: If his fictional name was Momochi, how can be the Momochi family and not the Tanba family (his real name)? What about the Tanba family? Did ever existed as it?

    Thank you for posting.
    Because "Momochi Sandayu" does not appear on any historical record. But a "Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu" appears in numerous history records, including Bansenshukai and Iranki. "Tanba" is not a family; Tanba is a province. The reason it is part of his name is because it's a title, because he was a samurai. His full name would be "Momochi Tanba no kami Yasumitsu", which basically means "Momochi Yasumitsu, protector of Tanba". Does not mean that he has anything to do with Tanba province; it's more to do with sacrilegious reasons and is very common amongst samurai. Even Hattori Hanzou Masanari had a second title; Iwami no kami.
  3. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 4:04am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    Now we have a tricky question: If you believe that the Shindenfudo-ryu of Takamatsu is legit, but in the believing that Toda never existed, how and from where Takamatsu could get his Menkyo Kaiden?

    By now, I think in the non-Toda Dojo possibility (during his childhood). But, what other possibilities can be?

    By the way, I understand the hand-in-hand-combat-Ninjutsu-concept, like "Ninja do Jujutsu but Ninjutsu is not Jujutsu" so I agree with you. Is fair to say that Ninjutsu is Bujutsu or unless part of it?

    Thank you for posting.
    Not sure. Re-read where I said, "i'm not the Shinden Fudo ryu guy". Your guess is as good as mine on who he had learned it from. The second part is a bit tricky. Ninjutsu was taught WITH bujutsu and even in bujutsu schools, but it technically isn't a bujutsu as there is NO fighting.
  4. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 8:58am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Because "Momochi Sandayu" does not appear on any historical record. But a "Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu" appears in numerous history records, including Bansenshukai and Iranki. "Tanba" is not a family; Tanba is a province. The reason it is part of his name is because it's a title, because he was a samurai. His full name would be "Momochi Tanba no kami Yasumitsu", which basically means "Momochi Yasumitsu, protector of Tanba". Does not mean that he has anything to do with Tanba province; it's more to do with sacrilegious reasons and is very common amongst samurai. Even Hattori Hanzou Masanari had a second title; Iwami no kami.
    Hi, SpamN'Cheese.

    Great information!

    Thank you very much.
  5. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 9:25am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Not sure. Re-read where I said, "i'm not the Shinden Fudo ryu guy". Your guess is as good as mine on who he had learned it from. The second part is a bit tricky. Ninjutsu was taught WITH bujutsu and even in bujutsu schools, but it technically isn't a bujutsu as there is NO fighting.
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    Well, It seems that you are a very documented person, so I just wanted to know your opinion on the Toda thing into this paradox. What could you wonder about, you know...

    I agree with you on that Ninjutsu is a very tricky thing. About Ninjutsu-&-Bujutsu I understand Ninjutsu in three places: In first place, as you are a FBI or CIA agent; in second places as you are a Seal or a Marine soldier, and in third place as you use the Ninjutsu term as a label for Jujutsu or any other fighting style. The third one is the most common use now-a-days. That is why Ninjusu is very misunderstood. Would it be correct understand it in that way?

    Thank you for posting.
  6. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 9:27am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Not sure. Re-read where I said, "i'm not the Shinden Fudo ryu guy". Your guess is as good as mine on who he had learned it from. The second part is a bit tricky. Ninjutsu was taught WITH bujutsu and even in bujutsu schools, but it technically isn't a bujutsu as there is NO fighting.
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    Well, It seems that you are a very documented person, so I just wanted to know your opinion on the Toda thing into this paradox. What could you wonder about, you know...

    I agree with you on that Ninjutsu is a very tricky thing. About Ninjutsu-&-Bujutsu I understand Ninjutsu in three places: In first place, as you are a FBI or CIA agent; in second places as you are a Seal or a Marine soldier, and in third place as you use the Ninjutsu term as a label for Jujutsu or any other fighting style. The third one is the most common use now-a-days. That is why Ninjusu is very misunderstood. Would it be correct understand it in that way?

    Thank you for posting.

    Sorry, its the same as #55. A connection fail.
    Last edited by Oniwaban; 8/22/2012 9:30am at . Reason: Sorry, its the same as #55. A connection fail.
  7. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 1:12pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I don't know much about Bujinkan history.
    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    well, sorry about being late. the bartitsu question was already answered by someone more qualified than me.
    Hi, baby_cart. Hi, DdlR.

    Well, even that I think maybe you can help me with this:

    TAKAMATSU TOSHITSUGU got from:
    - - - MIZUTA YOSHITARO TODAFUSA
    - - - - - - - - - HONTAI TAKAGI YOSHIN RYU
    - - - - - - - - - GIKAN RYU
    - - - ISHITANI MATSUTARO TAKEKAGE
    - - - - - - - - - HONTAI TAKAGI YOSHIN RYU
    - - - - - - - - - KUKISHIN RYU
    - - - TODA SHINRYUKEN MASAMAMITSU
    - - - - - - - - - TOGAKURE RYU
    - - - - - - - - - GYOKKO RYU
    - - - - - - - - - KOTO RYU
    - - - - - - - - - GYOKUSHIN RYU
    - - - - - - - - - KUMOGAKURE RYU
    - - - - - - - - - SHINDENFUDO RYU

    TOGAKURE RYU

    The emblematic Ryu-ha of Bujinkan and the only one where Hatsumi is a real Soke (the rest are Menkyo Kaiden). It is said that this Ryu-ha have almost 1.000-years-old but there are no historical records behind Takamatsu so is easy to think that he made-up Togakure-ryu based in Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu (maybe Shindenfudo-ryu) and some scrolls he got as the collector that he was. Something outdated but great work, anyway...

    GYOKKO RYU

    It is said that Gyokko-ryu and Togakure-ryu are phisically in the same scroll, so anyone can think that Togakure ryu is the Ninjutsu part of Gyokko-ryu and so Takamatsu made-up Gyokko-ryu too. I think he could find the scroll somewhere else and lie about how he got it, but indeed created Togakure-ryu whith this bases.

    KOTO RYU

    It is said that Koto-ryu was created from Gyokko-ryu, so in first place we tent to wonder that is another Takamatsu made-up Ryu-ha, but I think that he could get this information (as well Gyokko-ryu) form China and/or the scrolls he collected, combine it with Gyokko-ryu with other scrolls and get Togakure-ryu.

    GYOKUSHIN RYU

    Never existed. I think Hatsumi made it up and got no succes with it.

    KUMOGAURE RYU

    Never existed. I think Hatsumi made it up and got no succes with it.

    SHINDENFUDO RYU

    It is said that he learned this Ryu-ha by his grandfather in his childhood. But here is the point: There are no evidence that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu ever existed. And if Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu never existed: How could Takamatsu Toshitsugu learned Shindenfudo-ryu from him? Who could teached Shindenfudo-ryu to Takamatsu Toshitsugu? I think he does learned Shindenfudo-ryu in Kobe as a child, so I am now thinking about Terajima Kuniichiro but for one reason this was not told as it really happened. And if this is true: Why?

    The thing is that now we know that Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Togakure-ryu are (or could be) Takamatsu-made-up-Ryu-ha, but it is set that Shindenfudo-ryu is a legit Ryu-ha. This make the paradox.

    To Toda or not to Toda? That is the question...!

    What do you think about this?

    By the way:

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    It's possible, but people who know more about ko-ryu history than I do have insisted that the branch of Shinden Fudo Ryu that eventually fed into Bartitsu is not the same as that claimed as part of the Bujinkan lineage.
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The 1978 edition lists nine generations of Shinden Fudo Ryu practitioners, beginning with Judge Yata, progressing through Barton-Wright's instructor in the late 1800s and then Mabuni Kenwa, Mabuni Kenei and Ueno Takashi. I vaguely recall reading that the Mabuni link was limited to a few of the traditional kata.
    This makes me wonder: Could be that Hatsumi learned Shindenfudo-ryu from Ueno Takeshi but loose his credentials because the Hamon that Ueno gave him and then Hatsumi told everyone that Takamatsu teached him this Ryu-ha? Just especulation, of course. But if...

    Thank you for posting.
  8. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 3:35pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Not sure. Re-read where I said, "i'm not the Shinden Fudo ryu guy". Your guess is as good as mine on who he had learned it from. The second part is a bit tricky. Ninjutsu was taught WITH bujutsu and even in bujutsu schools, but it technically isn't a bujutsu as there is NO fighting.
    This may be a semantic disagreement, but I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that ninjutsu is not a bujutsu. It was my understanding that bujutsu included all martial skills, not just those directly applicable to fighting. So schools of swimming in armor, military horsemanship, strategy (heiho), siege engineering, etc. all counted as bujutsu. So why wouldn't espionage skills count?

    Also, your point about Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu (and likewise your implication with Hattori Hanzo Masanari) being samurai is interesting. Are you drawing a bright line that says samurai could not be "ninja" as well? I'm of the school of thought that the rigid dichotomy between samurai and ninja is not true. Although this too may get into a semantic issue over the definition of "ninja." Since it is unlikely that many (if any) historical ninja resembled the stereotypical image we have today, that's understandable. I'm prepared to believe many (but maybe not all) spymasters and unconventional fighters of the samurai class would fall under a broad definition of ninja. Whether or not anyone self-identified as a "ninja" (or pick your contemporary term) is an interesting question.

    Like I said, I think we're working from different ideas and definitions. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.


    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken

  9. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2012 4:04pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi, Styygens.

    ...

    (I do not know what to say about Steephen Hayes and Doron Navon, by the way...).
    That's ok. At least as far as Stephen Hayes goes... No one else does either. All I can tell you for sure is that he's on speaking terms with a handful of the oldest Bujinkan shihan in the US. The relationship between Hayes and Hatsumi is a mystery to me, and frankly it's their business. Hayes has definitely gone his own way in terms of training and teaching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Originally Posted by Styygens
    "How similar are all the branches; are the techniques the same and do they even share names?
    How/where could I get that information?
    It should be obvious. You'll have to research this by respectfully approaching the different Takamatsuden and X-Kans and finding teachers willing to explain what they do. It will be up to you to compare and contrast. Fortunately, there are a number of books available now that can help baseline the Bujinkan ryuha and kata.

    This one should be helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Unarmed-Fighti...atsumi+masaaki
    and you might find this series useful too:
    http://www.amazon.com/Togakure-Bujin...ef=pd_sim_b_25

    But only old fashioned networking and research is going to get you access to what the other branches are training.

    And we're back to my point about the Takamatsuden Spaghetti -- the more you pull on one noodle, the bigger the mess you make. If you're asking questions about the Takamatsuden schools, you can't avoid the Takamatsuden organizations. You need to thoroughly understand what they say is their own history first. I understand you're looking for verification of the schools (esp. Shindenfudo Ryu) apart from Takamatsu. It seems logical. But even if Takamatsu's claims are legit, it's possible there is no independent line of the schools still in existence for you to check against. Not all koryu schools survived to the modern day. Dozens, if not hundreds, are extinct, or exist only as densho.

    I think it is likely that Takamatsu fibbed about his lineage even in the case of legitimate schools. Assuming Toda didn't exist, Takamatsu might have attributed a legitimate Shindenfudo Ryu training to Toda to help bolster his claims that Togakure Ryu existed. Mixing lies with truth is a classic way to enhance the crediblity of lies. Why, it's the kind of trick a ninja might use... :Smile2:


    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken

  10. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2012 2:10am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    This may be a semantic disagreement, but I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that ninjutsu is not a bujutsu. It was my understanding that bujutsu included all martial skills, not just those directly applicable to fighting. So schools of swimming in armor, military horsemanship, strategy (heiho), siege engineering, etc. all counted as bujutsu. So why wouldn't espionage skills count?

    Also, your point about Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu (and likewise your implication with Hattori Hanzo Masanari) being samurai is interesting. Are you drawing a bright line that says samurai could not be "ninja" as well? I'm of the school of thought that the rigid dichotomy between samurai and ninja is not true. Although this too may get into a semantic issue over the definition of "ninja." Since it is unlikely that many (if any) historical ninja resembled the stereotypical image we have today, that's understandable. I'm prepared to believe many (but maybe not all) spymasters and unconventional fighters of the samurai class would fall under a broad definition of ninja. Whether or not anyone self-identified as a "ninja" (or pick your contemporary term) is an interesting question.

    Like I said, I think we're working from different ideas and definitions. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.
    Haha, no, I'm not trying to differentiate ninja and samurai, since ninjutsu is most certainly a "samurai art", according to Shoninki. Although, there's an "X factor" on the ratio of ninja that were ashigaru and ninja that were samurai. (My belief is that the people in charge of the land were the samurai, and any ninja who weren't directly related to the samurai were the ashigaru who came from farmers of the land) When I said "bujutsu", I meant more so "fighting art." Regardless, I think we'll all agree that ninjutsu is not a fighting art and that ninja would just learn either his family's fighting arts or the closest ones. I was also more so explaining the name thing with Tanba Yasumitsu because "Tanba" is just his title; that it was a samurai thing to have your name like that.
    Last edited by SpamN'Cheese; 8/23/2012 2:12am at . Reason: Needed some spicing.
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