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  1. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2012 6:38pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    I personally think he made that **** up from Chinese gung fu and "Japanised" so it could stay alive.
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    I got other related questions:

    In the Gyokko-ryu lineage is established that Hachiryu Nyudo invented the Kyogetsu Shoge. I find this weapon very strange because the women-hair-rope in place of an -obvious- chain, and I have not seen it in any other place out of Bujinkan matters. What can you tell about it? Is this a real weapon? Did Hachiryu Nyudo really existed?

    About all that Toda people, I mean, in the lineage are ten generations of Toda members. What about them? Fictional too?

    What is the meaning of the terms "Iga-ryu" and "Koga-ryu"? Are there concrete Ryu-ha or a kind of reference?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Oniwaban; 8/17/2012 6:47pm at .
  2. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2012 7:54am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    I got other related questions:

    In the Gyokko-ryu lineage is established that Hachiryu Nyudo invented the Kyogetsu Shoge. I find this weapon very strange because the women-hair-rope in place of an -obvious- chain, and I have not seen it in any other place out of Bujinkan matters. What can you tell about it? Is this a real weapon? Did Hachiryu Nyudo really existed?

    About all that Toda people, I mean, in the lineage are ten generations of Toda members. What about them? Fictional too?

    What is the meaning of the terms "Iga-ryu" and "Koga-ryu"? Are there concrete Ryu-ha or a kind of reference?

    Thank you.
    Kyoketsu shoge, from what I understand, is basically the Bujinkan's poor man kusari gama. I don't think it existed historically. Iga and Koka ryu are also ninjutsu schools from the Iga and Koka regions. Originally, there were 49 Iga schools and 53 koka. Iga and Koka ryu were basically either umbrella terms to mean ALL of Iga/Koka ninjutsu or were two individual schools themselves that arose out of the others. It's difficult to explain, actually. Just know that Iga and Koka ryu, as schools, did NOT exist until the end of the 17th century.
  3. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2012 8:01am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    So, you say yes to both questions: Yes to Takamatsu finding/learnign styles/techniques somewhere else (maybe China) and yes to Takamatsu made-up Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu with the information he got. I have to say that I agree with that too, but I have to add that, anyway, it was a brilliant work.

    I found this PDF chart from a Bujinkan Dojo. It looks they are trying to tell some truths at the same time they care about Bujinkan propaganda, but is well done, however...

    http://www.hanako.co.uk/Charts/Bujinkan-keizu.pdf

    DdlR is a Bartitsu connoisseur and he said that there was a Shindenfudo-ryu Dojo in Kobe at times when Takamatsu Toshitsugu was a child. He also said that "is possible that the line-name dead/ended circa 1900 and was revived much later". (#21) Of course, he was talking about Barton-Wright related and responsibly he stablished that the line-part could be pure especulation, but indeed that made me wonder a lot.

    In the PDF chart we can see how the Toda-to-Takamatsu line contains all the Takamatsu-made-up-Ryu-ha in one single line, exepted for Shindenfudo-ryu wich has its own line. That made me wonder and the conclusion that I had is that if Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu never existed, Takamatsu effectively could have learned Shindenfudo-ryu as a child but not with his grand-father but with Terajima Kuniichiro (Yata Noriyuki) and for who-knows-what-reason this was not told as it happened. It will be necesary to take a look to the Shindenfudo-ryu credentials of Takamatsu Toshitgusu (his own Menkyo Kaiden) for to be sure. Takamatsu was a Ryu-ha densho/information collector and his Ryu-ha relationships had a lot to do with that. The Kuki family, for example. So there is the possibility that he could find/get some densho/information of Shindenfudo-ryu in times when "the line-name dead/ended" is disponnible too.

    What do you think about this? It can be rasonable?

    Looking to the PDF: Into the Takamatsu-made-up-Ryu-ha line we can see Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu, Togakure-ryu, Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu, but personaly I think that Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu never existed or they are creations of Hatsumi, so I pay more atention to Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Togakure-ryu wich I could not -by any way- track out the Takamatsuden, so until Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu evidence appear is necessary to conclude that Takamatsu Toshitsugu could made-up this Ryu-ha by finding, learning, fixing, experimenting, assembling, inventing, synthesizing, or what it was necessary to made them.

    I have some questions for you (or for anyone who want to answer):

    This terms: Daken-Taijutsu, Ju-Taijutsu, Taihen-Jutsu, Koppo-Jutsu, Kosshi-Jutsu; are terms that only can be finded into Takamatsuden or there are more Ryu-ha (out of Takamatsuden) that use this terminology?

    Are there out of the Takamatsuden other Ryu-ha that uses the Ninpo or Ninjutsu especialities with their description-names as it does Togakure-ryu Ninpo (I mean: Like "Exoticmisticname-ryu Ninpo-Ninjutsu") or this especialities in the placards are exclusively seen on the Takamatsuden?

    Thank you for posting.
    It's possible, but I'm not the guy to go to when it comes to Shinden Fudo ryu. Although, I do believe 100% that Takamatsu's SFR is legit. (As in, was actually taught to him, not invented by him) Those terms: jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, koppojutsu, etc. They can all be found outside of the Takamatsu-den. Yagyu Shingan ryu lists several techniques as such. As for ninjutsu, yes. In a technical way, "ninpo" is the mental aspect of it. "Ninjutsu" would be the physical. I'm not going to go in details here, because it's hard to explain it further. As said before, ninjutsu is NOT a fighting art, but it does go hand in hand with combat. Most shinobi who have training in ninjutsu will most certainly either train in any local fighting art nearby, or by their family's martial art. In the case of the Kishu ninja, the family art is Natori ryu heiho; the ninjutsu is Shin-Kusunoki ryu ninjutsu, a.k.a. Kishu ryu.
  4. baby_cart is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2012 1:41pm


     Style: ex-BJJ, ex-TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well, sorry about being late. the bartitsu question was already answered by someone more qualified than me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    I got other related questions:

    In the Gyokko-ryu lineage is established that Hachiryu Nyudo invented the Kyogetsu Shoge. I find this weapon very strange because the women-hair-rope in place of an -obvious- chain, and I have not seen it in any other place out of Bujinkan matters. What can you tell about it? Is this a real weapon? Did Hachiryu Nyudo really existed?

    About all that Toda people, I mean, in the lineage are ten generations of Toda members. What about them? Fictional too?

    What is the meaning of the terms "Iga-ryu" and "Koga-ryu"? Are there concrete Ryu-ha or a kind of reference?

    Thank you.

    IIRC kyoketsu shoge is lumped together with the teachings of togakure ryu. and again, IIRC, there is a poster on a ceratin 'other' forum that insinuates the kyoketsu shoge as a boarding hook, as in "har, har, boarders away" pirate boarding. cobble that up with a certain post on e-budo stating that takamatsu tried to get approval for the creation of kukishin ryu ninpo, and was denied. mix 'em all together and you can form a certain hypothesis.

    PS the kuki family, owners of kukishin ryu, was renowned for the 'kuki suigun', the naval force active during the azuchi-momoyama period.
  5. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2012 3:53pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi Styygens.

    Nothing more yet but still digging. I just have some stories about hidden Soke of Gikkan-ryu and Togakure-ryu, and some other things about Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu but all of them into the Takamatsuden.

    But I still learning: In the begining I thought that Takamatsu made-up Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu but now I think that he may obtained those Densho in -who knows- a garage selling or maybe in China. That is, if is true that Toda never existed, of course.

    The thing is that I still into Takamatsuden and I would like to find something out this lineage. There is something about Shindenfudo-ryu with Bartitsu. It is something for starting... But I still got nothing for Gyokko-ryu or Koto-ryu yet.

    Thank you for asking.
    IF I were going to research the various Takamatsuden schools, one of the questions I would be asking is: "How similar are all the branches; are the techniques the same and do they even share names?" Another question would be, "Do all the branches tell the same history stories?"

    It's understandable that you are looking for independent confirmation outside the Bujinkan stories, but you shouldn't assume that the other Takamatsuden branches will all have the same stories. If there are discrepancies, then trying to reconcile them might lead to the truth. I wouldn't be so quick to discount other Takamatsuden branches as potential leads. The further you get from the Bujinkan, the more interesting the information might prove.
  6. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2012 5:04pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    It's possible, but I'm not the guy to go to when it comes to Shinden Fudo ryu. Although, I do believe 100% that Takamatsu's SFR is legit. (As in, was actually taught to him, not invented by him) Those terms: jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, koppojutsu, etc. They can all be found outside of the Takamatsu-den. Yagyu Shingan ryu lists several techniques as such. As for ninjutsu, yes. In a technical way, "ninpo" is the mental aspect of it. "Ninjutsu" would be the physical. I'm not going to go in details here, because it's hard to explain it further. As said before, ninjutsu is NOT a fighting art, but it does go hand in hand with combat. Most shinobi who have training in ninjutsu will most certainly either train in any local fighting art nearby, or by their family's martial art. In the case of the Kishu ninja, the family art is Natori ryu heiho; the ninjutsu is Shin-Kusunoki ryu ninjutsu, a.k.a. Kishu ryu.
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    Now we have a tricky question: If you believe that the Shindenfudo-ryu of Takamatsu is legit, but in the believing that Toda never existed, how and from where Takamatsu could get his Menkyo Kaiden?

    By now, I think in the non-Toda Dojo possibility (during his childhood). But, what other possibilities can be?

    By the way, I understand the hand-in-hand-combat-Ninjutsu-concept, like "Ninja do Jujutsu but Ninjutsu is not Jujutsu" so I agree with you. Is fair to say that Ninjutsu is Bujutsu or unless part of it?

    Thank you for posting.
  7. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2012 5:12pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    well, sorry about being late. the bartitsu question was already answered by someone more qualified than me.

    IIRC kyoketsu shoge is lumped together with the teachings of togakure ryu. and again, IIRC, there is a poster on a ceratin 'other' forum that insinuates the kyoketsu shoge as a boarding hook, as in "har, har, boarders away" pirate boarding. cobble that up with a certain post on e-budo stating that takamatsu tried to get approval for the creation of kukishin ryu ninpo, and was denied. mix 'em all together and you can form a certain hypothesis.

    PS the kuki family, owners of kukishin ryu, was renowned for the 'kuki suigun', the naval force active during the azuchi-momoyama period.
    Hi, baby_cart.

    The Kyogetsu Shoge that you describes looks more than a Kaginawa. Right? What I can wonder about the Kuki denied-permission thing is that Togakure comes from that. Is that right or there is something more?

    By the way, what did IIRC means?

    Thank you for posting.
    Last edited by Oniwaban; 8/21/2012 5:14pm at . Reason: orthography fault
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/21/2012 5:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

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    IIRC = "if I remember correctly".
  9. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2012 5:35pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    IF I were going to research the various Takamatsuden schools, one of the questions I would be asking is: "How similar are all the branches; are the techniques the same and do they even share names?" Another question would be, "Do all the branches tell the same history stories?"

    It's understandable that you are looking for independent confirmation outside the Bujinkan stories, but you shouldn't assume that the other Takamatsuden branches will all have the same stories. If there are discrepancies, then trying to reconcile them might lead to the truth. I wouldn't be so quick to discount other Takamatsuden branches as potential leads. The further you get from the Bujinkan, the more interesting the information might prove.
    Hi, Styygens.

    By now I have something like this:

    - - - - - TAKAMATSU TOSHITSUGU
    - - - - - - - - - - UENO TAKASHI
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KAMINAGA SHIGEMI (SOKE)
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KAI KUNIYUKI
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TANAKA FUMON (SOKE DAIRI)
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TANAKA MIDORI
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - FUKUMOTO YOSHIO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KOBAYASHI MASAO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - SAKAGAMI TAKEJIRO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - HATSUMI YOSHIAKI (HAMON)
    - - - - - - - - - - SATO KIMBEI
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TANEMURA SHOTO
    - - - - - - - - - - AKIMOTO FUMIO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TANEMURA SHOTO
    - - - - - - - - - - FUKUMOTO YOSHIO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TANEMURA SHOTO
    - - - - - - - - - - KIMURA MASAHARU
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TANEMURA SHOTO
    - - - - - - - - - - HATSUMI YOSHIAKI
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TANEMURA SHOTO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - MANAKA FUMIO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OGURI KOICHI
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - HATSUMI MARIKO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ISHIZUKA TETSUJI
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - SENO HIDEO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - YONEKAWA ZENJI
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NOGUCHI YUKIO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NAGATO TOSHIRO
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - HOBAN JACK (USA)
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - FLEITAS PEDRO (SPAIN)
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - COUSERGUE ARNAUD (FRANCE)
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KING PETER (INGLAND)
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - BOGSATER SVENERIC (HOLLAND)
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - MALMSTROM BUD (USA)
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - And a very big bunch of more gaijin...
    (I do not know what to say about Steephen Hayes and Doron Navon, by the way...)


    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    "Do all the branches tell the same history stories?"
    Good point. But, all what I have get is about them with Hatsumi. (This person is very controversial...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    "How similar are all the branches; are the techniques the same and do they even share names?
    How/where could I get that information?

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    It's understandable that you are looking for independent confirmation outside the Bujinkan stories, but you shouldn't assume that the other Takamatsuden branches will all have the same stories.
    Well, I am trying to get something, not from out-of-the-Bujinkan but from out-of-the-Takamatsuden. But I still getting nothing. So...

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    I wouldn't be so quick to discount other Takamatsuden branches as potential leads. The further you get from the Bujinkan, the more interesting the information might prove.
    I am into it. Thank you very much. But anything of non-Takamatsuden yet.

    Thank you for posting.
    Last edited by Oniwaban; 8/21/2012 5:41pm at . Reason: another question added
  10. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2012 5:53pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    The most famous Momochi was Tanba Yasumitsu, who is sometimes fictionalized as "Momochi Sandayu". Tanba was known for his amazing mastery of disguise and other forms of yonin. He had multiple families each with different identities, and was a general for Iga during Nobunaga's clean-up operation of Iga.
    Hi, SpamN'Cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    The most famous Momochi was Tanba Yasumitsu, who is sometimes fictionalized as "Momochi Sandayu".
    How could this be that way? I mean: If his fictional name was Momochi, how can be the Momochi family and not the Tanba family (his real name)? What about the Tanba family? Did ever existed as it?

    Thank you for posting.
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