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  1. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2012 10:55pm

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     Style: 柔術

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    I meant to answer this part sooner, sorry for the delay.

    I don't know much about Tanaka Fumon, so what I'm about to give is just about all the informaiton I've got:

    Tanaka Fumon has published at least one book in English: Samurai Fighting Arts: The Spirit and the Practice.

    That book includes a list titled "Titles and Licenses Held by the Author" He claims, as follows:
    1. Modern kendo, 4th dan
    2. Modern bojutsu, 5th dan
    3. Jujutsu (kumiuchi hyoho yawara-no-jutsu), 7th dan
    4. Kyoshi battojutsu, 7th dan
    5. Kyoshi iai suemonogiri kenpo, 7th dan
    6. Hanshi kobudo, 8th dan
    7. Koden Enshin Ryu kumiuchi kenden; 11th Soke
    8. Kukishin Ryu bujutsu; 19th Soke
    9. Honmon Enshin Ryu iai suemonogiri kenpo; 4th Soke
    10. Tenshin Hyoho Soden Kukamishin Ryu; 19th Soke
    11. Koto Ryu; representative Soke
    12. Shindo Tenshin Ryu toritejutsu; representative Soke
    13. Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu jujutsu; representative Soke
    14. Asayamaichiden Ryu taijutsu; representative Soke
    15. Shinden Fudo Ryu; representative Soke
    16. Bokuden Ryu jujutsu koshinomawari; representative Soke
    17. Koga Ryu ninjutsu [no rank given]
    18. Iga ryu ninpo [no rank given]
    19. A one-time director of Dainihon-Butokukai
    20. A standing advisor of Zennihon-Budo-Sogorenmei
    21. President of Nihonkoden-Fushimusokai
    Whew! That's a resume. I count three obvious overlaps with Takamatsuden school names (underlined), but you may find even more in common as you dig.

    The somewhat controversial author Serge Mol, author of Classical Fighting Arts of Japan and Classical Weaponry of Japan seems to be a student of Fumon Tanaka. It appears you may be able to contact him through his latest publisher, Eibusha. He may be able to shed light on Fumon Tanaka's claims, and help you get in touch with him.

    I'd be very curious to hear what you discover from this line of research.
    Tanaka Fumon is a representative of Kaminaga Shimegi a student of Ueno Takashi, Takamatsu's top student before he retired and Hatsumi came into the picture.
  2. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2012 7:48am


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    Tanaka Fumon is a representative of Kaminaga Shimegi a student of Ueno Takashi, Takamatsu's top student before he retired and Hatsumi came into the picture.
    Thank you for confirming that for me and providing the connecting pieces I was missing.

    Interestingly, a friend of mine returned from living in the UK with about 6 months of training at this school. It claims a link to Fumon Tanaka on the "Our Structure" page. I quizzed my friend about what he'd learned and it sounded much more like standard Gendai Jujutsu (i.e. Judo taught as "not for sport" and "real self-defense.") than Takamatsuden. He had no familiarity with any variation of the Booj kamae, and had never heard of the individual ryuha. (He did recognize seoi nage and had a much better tai-otoshi than me.)

    There could be any number of reasons for this lack of familiarity. He and his kids are joining my booj school (I know... I know... But it's got a great family atmosphere, and he's just looking for the exercise and community... Please forgive me.), so we'll see over the next few months if anything does seem familiar to him.

    I'm still curious to hear if Oniwaban tracks down any more detail.
  3. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2012 7:53am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

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    Momochi was an Iga family that resided in southern Iga in the Nabari district (What is now Nabari City). They also had property in Hoojiro village in the Ueno district of Iga as well as in Yoshino province. There's not much history to them pre-Sengoku period, and my belief is that they have the same ancestors as the Hattori because both families have similar family crests and their ninjutsu is reportedly similar. Not only that, but the Hattori would later help the Momochi out after Tokugawa becomes Shogun, suggesting that they may have close connections.

    The most famous Momochi was Tanba Yasumitsu, who is sometimes fictionalized as "Momochi Sandayu". Tanba was known for his amazing mastery of disguise and other forms of yonin. He had multiple families each with different identities, and was a general for Iga during Nobunaga's clean-up operation of Iga. During the last battles of the Iga Wars, he and his men were holed up in Kashiwabara castle and later surrendered to Oda, which abruptly ended the independent Iga Republic. There are no records of him after this, but it is said that during the early Tokugawa period, the Hattori family asked Ieyasu permission and gave Nabari back to the Momochi. The Momochi would continue training in ninjutsu up until the mid-Edo period. Momochi Mikio is Tanba's descendant that lives in the Momochi house in Nabari, while Momochi Yusuke is his descendant that lives in Tokyo.

    Also, please note, that most of the names on the Gyokko ryu lineage are actually fictional and come from comic books that were popular during Takamatsu's childhood. Momochi Sandayu is a fictional version of Tanba Yasumitsu and does not exist in any historical record. Tozawa Hakuunsai, for example, comes from the Sasuke Sarutobi novels and is a Koka ninja master who lives in Togakushi (Togakure), where he trains Sasuke. Sound familiar? It should.
    Last edited by SpamN'Cheese; 8/12/2012 7:56am at . Reason: Paragraph indent
  4. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2012 11:47pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten places Mabuni in the same lineage as Barton-Wright's sensei.
    Hi DdlR.

    That is a very interesting thing. Please, tell me more about it.

    Thanks.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2012 12:33am

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugei_Ryuha_Daijiten

    The 1978 edition lists nine generations of Shinden Fudo Ryu practitioners, beginning with Judge Yata, progressing through Barton-Wright's instructor in the late 1800s and then Mabuni Kenwa, Mabuni Kenei and Ueno Takashi. I vaguely recall reading that the Mabuni link was limited to a few of the traditional kata.
  6. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2012 1:00am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    I meant to answer this part sooner, sorry for the delay.

    I don't know much about Tanaka Fumon, so what I'm about to give is just about all the informaiton I've got:

    Tanaka Fumon has published at least one book in English: Samurai Fighting Arts: The Spirit and the Practice.

    That book includes a list titled "Titles and Licenses Held by the Author" He claims, as follows:
    1. Modern kendo, 4th dan
    2. Modern bojutsu, 5th dan
    3. Jujutsu (kumiuchi hyoho yawara-no-jutsu), 7th dan
    4. Kyoshi battojutsu, 7th dan
    5. Kyoshi iai suemonogiri kenpo, 7th dan
    6. Hanshi kobudo, 8th dan
    7. Koden Enshin Ryu kumiuchi kenden; 11th Soke
    8. Kukishin Ryu bujutsu; 19th Soke
    9. Honmon Enshin Ryu iai suemonogiri kenpo; 4th Soke
    10. Tenshin Hyoho Soden Kukamishin Ryu; 19th Soke
    11. Koto Ryu; representative Soke
    12. Shindo Tenshin Ryu toritejutsu; representative Soke
    13. Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu jujutsu; representative Soke
    14. Asayamaichiden Ryu taijutsu; representative Soke
    15. Shinden Fudo Ryu; representative Soke
    16. Bokuden Ryu jujutsu koshinomawari; representative Soke
    17. Koga Ryu ninjutsu [no rank given]
    18. Iga ryu ninpo [no rank given]
    19. A one-time director of Dainihon-Butokukai
    20. A standing advisor of Zennihon-Budo-Sogorenmei
    21. President of Nihonkoden-Fushimusokai
    Whew! That's a resume. I count three obvious overlaps with Takamatsuden school names (underlined), but you may find even more in common as you dig.

    The somewhat controversial author Serge Mol, author of Classical Fighting Arts of Japan and Classical Weaponry of Japan seems to be a student of Fumon Tanaka. It appears you may be able to contact him through his latest publisher, Eibusha. He may be able to shed light on Fumon Tanaka's claims, and help you get in touch with him.

    I'd be very curious to hear what you discover from this line of research.
    Hi Styygens.

    Well, by now what I can dig with this is indeed begins with the Bokuden Ryu as is told that some Takagiyoshin Ryu video of Hatsumi (Shinken Shiraha Dome, if I remember well) is in fact made with Bokuden Ryu techniques. And something about Asayama Ryu in the same plan but I can not remember what.

    About lineage, I have something like this:

    - Takamatsu Toshitugu
    - - - Ueno Takeshi
    - - - - - Kaminaga Shimegi
    - - - - - Tanaka Fumon
    - - - Sato Kimbei
    - - - - - Tanemura Shoto
    - - - Hatsumi Yoshiaki
    - - - - - Tanemura Shoto
    - - - - - Manaka Fumon
    - - - - - Several local and foreigner Bujinkan Shihan

    But this still into the Takamatsuden and I am looking for some -posibles- out-Takamatsuden sources.

    It seems that every Master have its own historian at their side. For example: Bujinkan have Kacem Zoughari, telling people lots of differents point of view for the same story. Something like: "Yes, is true that Hatsumi Sensei met Takamatsu Sensei when he was very old but at that time he was a complete man and he gived to Hatsumi a full knowledge of live and experience. So Hatsumi Sensei learned better from him than anyone else." And stuff like that... Zoughari do not say that in that time Takamatsu allready had gave his original docs to his previus students (Ueno and Sato) and made by his own hand some notebooks and titles for Hatsumi.

    There is a notable case of this: Takamatsu had two Menkyo Kaiden from different lines of Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu. One from the Fujita line, and the other from the Ishitani line. Fujita and Ishitani were two of the four students of Yagi who recived Menkyo Kaiden. Yagi never named a Soke, so his Menkyo-Kaiden-students started their own lines.

    Takamatsu gave his two Menkyo Kaiden lines:

    Ueno received "Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu", from Fujita line.

    Sato received "Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu", from Ishitani line.

    Hatsumi received "Takagi Yoshin Ryu Ju-Taijutsu", from no line. (A kind of combo with elements from Fujita and Ishitani lines and some other Ryu-ha added.) So Hatsumi is not the "One Million Soke" of nothing but the first -or second- Soke of his own organization based in what Takamatsu made for him and gave to him.

    "Kukishinden (Ryu) Happo Biken (Jutsu)", is another good example.

    I am interesting in to find a probable non-Takamatsuden source of Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Shindenfudo-ryu. Do you think I could get some good information from the Mol editor or it could give me just the-other-side-of-the-coin of the Takamatsuden story?

    By the way: What is that Iga Ryu Ninpo and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu thing that Tanaka holds? Are Iga and Koga families or regions?

    Thank you very much for your postings.
  7. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2012 1:28am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Thank you for confirming that for me and providing the connecting pieces I was missing.

    I'm still curious to hear if Oniwaban tracks down any more detail.
    Hi Styygens.

    Nothing more yet but still digging. I just have some stories about hidden Soke of Gikkan-ryu and Togakure-ryu, and some other things about Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu but all of them into the Takamatsuden.

    But I still learning: In the begining I thought that Takamatsu made-up Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu but now I think that he may obtained those Densho in -who knows- a garage selling or maybe in China. That is, if is true that Toda never existed, of course.

    The thing is that I still into Takamatsuden and I would like to find something out this lineage. There is something about Shindenfudo-ryu with Bartitsu. It is something for starting... But I still got nothing for Gyokko-ryu or Koto-ryu yet.

    Thank you for asking.
  8. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2012 2:05am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Momochi was an Iga family that resided in southern Iga in the Nabari district (What is now Nabari City). They also had property in Hoojiro village in the Ueno district of Iga as well as in Yoshino province. There's not much history to them pre-Sengoku period, and my belief is that they have the same ancestors as the Hattori because both families have similar family crests and their ninjutsu is reportedly similar. Not only that, but the Hattori would later help the Momochi out after Tokugawa becomes Shogun, suggesting that they may have close connections.

    The most famous Momochi was Tanba Yasumitsu, who is sometimes fictionalized as "Momochi Sandayu". Tanba was known for his amazing mastery of disguise and other forms of yonin. He had multiple families each with different identities, and was a general for Iga during Nobunaga's clean-up operation of Iga. During the last battles of the Iga Wars, he and his men were holed up in Kashiwabara castle and later surrendered to Oda, which abruptly ended the independent Iga Republic. There are no records of him after this, but it is said that during the early Tokugawa period, the Hattori family asked Ieyasu permission and gave Nabari back to the Momochi. The Momochi would continue training in ninjutsu up until the mid-Edo period. Momochi Mikio is Tanba's descendant that lives in the Momochi house in Nabari, while Momochi Yusuke is his descendant that lives in Tokyo.

    Also, please note, that most of the names on the Gyokko ryu lineage are actually fictional and come from comic books that were popular during Takamatsu's childhood. Momochi Sandayu is a fictional version of Tanba Yasumitsu and does not exist in any historical record. Tozawa Hakuunsai, for example, comes from the Sasuke Sarutobi novels and is a Koka ninja master who lives in Togakushi (Togakure), where he trains Sasuke. Sound familiar? It should.
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    It seems like the Togakure-ryu "saga". I remember hearing or reading about this somewhere. Something about Goemon (the japanese Robin Hood) into the Togakure-ryu lineage, that -by the way- was changed in three opportunities by Takamatsu and this is reflected in three different editions of the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten. I also heard or read about some Koga Ninjutsu books that could be inspiration material for Takamatsu creations, what suggest that all (or almost all) Takamatsuden Iga stuff could be indeed Koga stuff, or unless Koga related inspiration. And also something about that there was a comic book named "Kumogakure" in Takamatsu-boy times, if I remember well.

    Plasma said that Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu can be traceable in time unless to the Momochi family into the 1600, but it seems that you are suggesting is that Gyokko-ryu could be a Takamastu-made-up. Did you think that? Or did you think that Takamatsu could get Gyokko-ryu Densho from somewhere else and then tell a "ninja story" to everyone?

    The legend also says that Koto-ryu became from Gyokko-ryu. What do you think about that?

    Thank you for your posting.
  9. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2012 11:42am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    It seems like the Togakure-ryu "saga". I remember hearing or reading about this somewhere. Something about Goemon (the japanese Robin Hood) into the Togakure-ryu lineage, that -by the way- was changed in three opportunities by Takamatsu and this is reflected in three different editions of the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten. I also heard or read about some Koga Ninjutsu books that could be inspiration material for Takamatsu creations, what suggest that all (or almost all) Takamatsuden Iga stuff could be indeed Koga stuff, or unless Koga related inspiration. And also something about that there was a comic book named "Kumogakure" in Takamatsu-boy times, if I remember well.

    Plasma said that Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu can be traceable in time unless to the Momochi family into the 1600, but it seems that you are suggesting is that Gyokko-ryu could be a Takamastu-made-up. Did you think that? Or did you think that Takamatsu could get Gyokko-ryu Densho from somewhere else and then tell a "ninja story" to everyone?

    The legend also says that Koto-ryu became from Gyokko-ryu. What do you think about that?

    Thank you for your posting.
    I personally think he made that **** up from Chinese gung fu and "Japanised" so it could stay alive. Just because there was a Momochi clan, doesn't mean it could be traced back to them. Plasma, from what I understand, wasn't trying to say that Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu are completely koryu; he was just throwing that Momochi bit out onto the dinner table to give some merit to the lineage. Going back on topic, Takamatsu put Tozawa Hakuunsai into the lineage, and Tozawa Hakuunsai is 100% fictional. Not only are there no history records of him, but the only source of where he came from is a kid's book from the early 20th century. Also, to answer your previous question to Stygens, I think Tanaka's "Iga ryu and Koka ryu" credentials are nothing more than just history. Ergo, he's not soke of either/or, but is stating that he is a historian on the matter? He's the curator of one of the museums in Koka as well.
    Last edited by SpamN'Cheese; 8/17/2012 11:45am at . Reason: Fixing up a sloppy sentence.
  10. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2012 5:05pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    I personally think he made that **** up from Chinese gung fu and "Japanised" so it could stay alive. Just because there was a Momochi clan, doesn't mean it could be traced back to them. Plasma, from what I understand, wasn't trying to say that Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu are completely koryu; he was just throwing that Momochi bit out onto the dinner table to give some merit to the lineage. Going back on topic, Takamatsu put Tozawa Hakuunsai into the lineage, and Tozawa Hakuunsai is 100% fictional. Not only are there no history records of him, but the only source of where he came from is a kid's book from the early 20th century. Also, to answer your previous question to Stygens, I think Tanaka's "Iga ryu and Koka ryu" credentials are nothing more than just history. Ergo, he's not soke of either/or, but is stating that he is a historian on the matter? He's the curator of one of the museums in Koka as well.
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    So, you say yes to both questions: Yes to Takamatsu finding/learnign styles/techniques somewhere else (maybe China) and yes to Takamatsu made-up Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu with the information he got. I have to say that I agree with that too, but I have to add that, anyway, it was a brilliant work.

    I found this PDF chart from a Bujinkan Dojo. It looks they are trying to tell some truths at the same time they care about Bujinkan propaganda, but is well done, however...

    http://www.hanako.co.uk/Charts/Bujinkan-keizu.pdf

    DdlR is a Bartitsu connoisseur and he said that there was a Shindenfudo-ryu Dojo in Kobe at times when Takamatsu Toshitsugu was a child. He also said that "is possible that the line-name dead/ended circa 1900 and was revived much later". (#21) Of course, he was talking about Barton-Wright related and responsibly he stablished that the line-part could be pure especulation, but indeed that made me wonder a lot.

    In the PDF chart we can see how the Toda-to-Takamatsu line contains all the Takamatsu-made-up-Ryu-ha in one single line, exepted for Shindenfudo-ryu wich has its own line. That made me wonder and the conclusion that I had is that if Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu never existed, Takamatsu effectively could have learned Shindenfudo-ryu as a child but not with his grand-father but with Terajima Kuniichiro (Yata Noriyuki) and for who-knows-what-reason this was not told as it happened. It will be necesary to take a look to the Shindenfudo-ryu credentials of Takamatsu Toshitgusu (his own Menkyo Kaiden) for to be sure. Takamatsu was a Ryu-ha densho/information collector and his Ryu-ha relationships had a lot to do with that. The Kuki family, for example. So there is the possibility that he could find/get some densho/information of Shindenfudo-ryu in times when "the line-name dead/ended" is disponnible too.

    What do you think about this? It can be rasonable?

    Looking to the PDF: Into the Takamatsu-made-up-Ryu-ha line we can see Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu, Togakure-ryu, Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu, but personaly I think that Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu never existed or they are creations of Hatsumi, so I pay more atention to Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Togakure-ryu wich I could not -by any way- track out the Takamatsuden, so until Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu evidence appear is necessary to conclude that Takamatsu Toshitsugu could made-up this Ryu-ha by finding, learning, fixing, experimenting, assembling, inventing, synthesizing, or what it was necessary to made them.

    I have some questions for you (or for anyone who want to answer):

    This terms: Daken-Taijutsu, Ju-Taijutsu, Taihen-Jutsu, Koppo-Jutsu, Kosshi-Jutsu; are terms that only can be finded into Takamatsuden or there are more Ryu-ha (out of Takamatsuden) that use this terminology?

    Are there out of the Takamatsuden other Ryu-ha that uses the Ninpo or Ninjutsu especialities with their description-names as it does Togakure-ryu Ninpo (I mean: Like "Exoticmisticname-ryu Ninpo-Ninjutsu") or this especialities in the placards are exclusively seen on the Takamatsuden?

    Thank you for posting.
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