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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 4:34pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And he appears, in a puff of smoke ...

    The dojo that Bartitsu founder E.W. Barton-Wright attended between roughly 1985-98 was located in Kobe, and was formally identified as teaching Shinden Fudo Ryu by Herman Ten Kate, an anthropologist from Holland who trained there at about the same time. Ten Kate also gave the name of their sensei as Terajima Kuniichiro, who was himself a student of Yata Onseisai. It has been suggested that "Terjima Kuniichiro" was a pseudonym of Yata Noriyuki, the son of Yata Onseisai. I believe that the history of this branch/version of Shinden Fudo Ryu is quite thoroughly documented up to the late 1800s.

    The current consensus is that the Shinden Fudo Ryu that Barton-Wright incorporated into Bartitsu was not related to the method claimed as part of the Bujinkan lineage. IMO it's possible that the line/name dead-ended circa 1900 and was "revived" much later, but that's pure speculation.
  2. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 11:15pm

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     Style: Bullshido's Ninja

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Do you have more information about the Momochi clan? Did they have another legacy that we can know about?
    I really don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    What do you know about non-Takamatsuden-Shindenfudo-ryu?

    Thank you.

    I am out of town and away from my books, I'll see if I can dig up a name.
  3. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2012 10:28pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Until baby_cart mentioned it, I had forgotten about this footnote.

    First, for all things Bartitsu, contact the resident Bullshido expert on the subject, DdlR. Since you can't send private messages yet, I'll ping him and invite him to join this thread.

    Second, Bartitsu is a Late Victorian/Edwardian Era hybrid martial art from England. It merged several methods of self-defense, including Japanese jujutsu. It is best remembered today as being referenced (if misspelled) in a Sherlock Holmes story.

    Shindenfudo Ryu was one of the jujutsu schools in the mix. However, I thought that this Shindenfudo Ryu was NOT the same as the Shinden Fudo Ryu school that Takamatsu lays claim to, and that was one of the reasons it didn't spring to mind before. Hopefully DdlR can vouch one way or the other about a Bartitsu/Takamatsu link through Shindenfudo Ryu.

    Third, one of the things that isn't always clear when people start pulling at the Takamatsu Speghetti strands is that you need to increase your understanding of koryu -- not just the Bujinkan schools. This question about whether or not Bartitsu and Takamatsuden are related through Shindenfudo Ryu is just one example. Two, three, or more schools could exist with the exact same name and not be related at all. One way things could be kept straight is through the use of kanji. Often the different schools used different characters to write their names. It would be easy to get caught in the trap of assuming Bartitsu and Takamatsuden lineages are related if you hear both claim Shindenfudo Ryu. You have to dig a little deeper to make sure it is the same Ryu; if you don't know that more than one ryu exists with the name, it may never occur to you.
    Hi Styygens.

    Thank you for answering.

    And thanks for the Bartitusu web site. Is very interesting. I remember that many years ago I readed a little something about but in that time I did not gave it the importance that now I understand that it have.

    I understand the idea about the possibility of same name into differents Ryu-ha. For example: the Gyokushin-ryu Jujutsu that appears in the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten.

    There are some stories about Kenwa Mabuni -founder of Shito-ryu- learning Shindenfudo-ryu (I think, it was in Okinawa). It could be the same Shindenfudo-ryu related to Takamatsu?

    Best regards.
  4. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2012 10:39pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    And he appears, in a puff of smoke ...

    The dojo that Bartitsu founder E.W. Barton-Wright attended between roughly 1985-98 was located in Kobe, and was formally identified as teaching Shinden Fudo Ryu by Herman Ten Kate, an anthropologist from Holland who trained there at about the same time. Ten Kate also gave the name of their sensei as Terajima Kuniichiro, who was himself a student of Yata Onseisai. It has been suggested that "Terjima Kuniichiro" was a pseudonym of Yata Noriyuki, the son of Yata Onseisai. I believe that the history of this branch/version of Shinden Fudo Ryu is quite thoroughly documented up to the late 1800s.

    The current consensus is that the Shinden Fudo Ryu that Barton-Wright incorporated into Bartitsu was not related to the method claimed as part of the Bujinkan lineage. IMO it's possible that the line/name dead-ended circa 1900 and was "revived" much later, but that's pure speculation.
    Hi DdlR.

    Thank you for answering.

    I soupose that you mean between 1885 and 1898. Right? Or, there is a very recent documentation?

    So... If it was not any Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda that could teached Shindenfudo-ryu to Takamatsu in his youth: It could be the possibility that Takamatsu learned Shindenfudo-ryu from the Dojo that you mean?

    Best regards.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2012 11:18pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi DdlR.

    Thank you for answering.

    I soupose that you mean between 1885 and 1898. Right? Or, there is a very recent documentation?
    I meant to write "1895 to 1898" - I don't understand what you're asking re. "recent documentation".

    So... If it was not any Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda that could teached Shindenfudo-ryu to Takamatsu in his youth: It could be the possibility that Takamatsu learned Shindenfudo-ryu from the Dojo that you mean?
    I don't know much about Bujinkan history.
  6. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2012 1:22am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I meant to write "1895 to 1898" - I don't understand what you're asking re. "recent documentation".

    I don't know much about Bujinkan history.
    Hi DdlR.

    The "recent documentation" thing was about the Takamatsuden thing, sorry for that. I think that it is suggested that Takamatsu could learned Shindenfudo-ryu by a Bartitsu source, so I am buying the idea.

    Anyway... I am very glad about knowing of the movie figure of Sherlock Holmes related to Bartitsu. When I saw the movie the first time I was very impressed because the fighting techniques they show in fighting coreography was familiar to me.

    Best regards.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2012 2:08am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi DdlR.

    The "recent documentation" thing was about the Takamatsuden thing, sorry for that. I think that it is suggested that Takamatsu could learned Shindenfudo-ryu by a Bartitsu source, so I am buying the idea.
    It's possible, but people who know more about ko-ryu history than I do have insisted that the branch of Shinden Fudo Ryu that eventually fed into Bartitsu is not the same as that claimed as part of the Bujinkan lineage.
  8. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2012 10:20am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    I really don't.

    I am out of town and away from my books, I'll see if I can dig up a name.
    Hi Plasma.

    About a non-Takamatsuden Shindenfudo-ryu I got two stories: One about Mabuni Kenwa learning Shindenfudo-ryu (maby in Okinawa) and the other about Terajima Kuniichiro teaching Shindenfudo-ryu in Kobe.

    What I am trying is to stablish are some possibilities to a probably non-Toda source in contrast to what Takamatsu supposedly said in his time. It is said that Takamatsu was a collector of Densho in times when no one value them anymore. It was the beginning of the Meiji Era and everything was changing dramatically for everyone. There were too many developments to look at: New armory technology, electricity, telegraph, railroad, new clothes, new liqours, photograpy, even the wheel (if we consider that this was very limited, so basically everyone had to walk) and much more. Then, the Japanese had the feeling that their country was obsolete. The Samurai were massacred at the end of the Satsuma Rebellion and this influenced profoundly the Japanese thinking about their one. It is said that, among other things, the Densho were stepping aside and were therefore easy to acquire. It was until the Mishima incident in 1970 when japanese people start over to feel better with themselves and their traditions took on new vigor. I have not detailed indicators of any of this but surely you will agree with me that this theory itself is feasible.

    If there was no Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu, Takamatsu Toshitsugu should have found and learned his chinese-origin-arts through the Densho that then latter he presented as part of his legacy. This may be added the fact that he attempted to create a school based on Kukishin-ryu with elements of Ninpo and Kenpo/Karate that he had collected and learned elsewhere, but the Kuki family would not allow him for that and therefore there is the possibility that Togakure-ryu was founded with these elements; I mean: Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu (possibly Shindenfudo-ryu) and various Densho of his Ninpo and Ninjutsu collection.

    Well, I started saying that Takamatsu could had made-up Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Shindenfudo-ryu, but you told me that this Ryu-ha can be traceable before him. I thank you for that and now I am searching about it. What I am getting makes me wonder if there was no Toda, Takamatsu could get his knowledges -perhaps- from his travel to China and/or the Densho he collected.

    For me this is fine. I mean, Takamatsu had done nothing wrong. I think his merits are commendable, by the way... Who can have a problem whith this are the Bujinkan people because their propaganda statements. But that is no my matter.

    About Gyokko-ryu I found this:

    Ikai
    Hogenbo
    Tesshun
    Sasabe, Tendo
    Hachiryu, Nyudo (inventor of Kyoketsu Shoge)
    Tozawa, Hakuunsai
    Tozawa, Shozuke
    Suzuki, Saburo Shigeyoshi
    Suzuki, Gobei
    Suzuki, Kojiro Mitsu
    Tozawa, Nyudo Geneai
    Yamon, Hyoun
    Kato, Ryu Hakuun
    Sakagami, Goro Katsushige
    Sakagami, Taro Kunishige
    Sakagami, Kotaro Masahide
    Sougyoko, Kan Ritsushi
    Toda, Sakyo Ishinsai
    Momochi, Sandayu 1
    Momochi, Sandayu 2
    Momochi, Tanba Yasumitsu
    Momochi, Taro Saemon
    Toda, Seiryu Nobutsuna
    Toda, Fudo Nobuchika
    Toda, Kangoro Nobuyasu
    Toda, Eisaburo Nobumasa
    Toda, Shinbei Masachika
    Toda, Shingoro Masayoshi
    Toda, Daigoro Chikashige
    Toda, Daisaburo Chikashige
    Toda, Shinryuken Masamitsu
    Takamatsu, Toshitsugu
    Hatsumi, Masaaki

    There are too many Toda figures in this lineage. What about all this Toda members? Did they do not existed either? Or this lineage is wrong?

    Best regards.
  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2012 11:21am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi Plasma.

    About a non-Takamatsuden Shindenfudo-ryu I got two stories: One about Mabuni Kenwa learning Shindenfudo-ryu (maby in Okinawa) and the other about Terajima Kuniichiro teaching Shindenfudo-ryu in Kobe.
    The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten places Mabuni in the same lineage as Barton-Wright's sensei.
  10. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2012 12:03pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post

    About Koto-ryu I understand that there is a Soke, named Fumon Tanaka who is considerated the true Soke of this Ryu.
    Is this story true?
    Any other information about this Ryu?
    Any other Soke?
    Any information before Takamatsu?
    ...
    I meant to answer this part sooner, sorry for the delay.

    I don't know much about Tanaka Fumon, so what I'm about to give is just about all the informaiton I've got:

    Tanaka Fumon has published at least one book in English: Samurai Fighting Arts: The Spirit and the Practice.

    That book includes a list titled "Titles and Licenses Held by the Author" He claims, as follows:
    1. Modern kendo, 4th dan
    2. Modern bojutsu, 5th dan
    3. Jujutsu (kumiuchi hyoho yawara-no-jutsu), 7th dan
    4. Kyoshi battojutsu, 7th dan
    5. Kyoshi iai suemonogiri kenpo, 7th dan
    6. Hanshi kobudo, 8th dan
    7. Koden Enshin Ryu kumiuchi kenden; 11th Soke
    8. Kukishin Ryu bujutsu; 19th Soke
    9. Honmon Enshin Ryu iai suemonogiri kenpo; 4th Soke
    10. Tenshin Hyoho Soden Kukamishin Ryu; 19th Soke
    11. Koto Ryu; representative Soke
    12. Shindo Tenshin Ryu toritejutsu; representative Soke
    13. Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu jujutsu; representative Soke
    14. Asayamaichiden Ryu taijutsu; representative Soke
    15. Shinden Fudo Ryu; representative Soke
    16. Bokuden Ryu jujutsu koshinomawari; representative Soke
    17. Koga Ryu ninjutsu [no rank given]
    18. Iga ryu ninpo [no rank given]
    19. A one-time director of Dainihon-Butokukai
    20. A standing advisor of Zennihon-Budo-Sogorenmei
    21. President of Nihonkoden-Fushimusokai
    Whew! That's a resume. I count three obvious overlaps with Takamatsuden school names (underlined), but you may find even more in common as you dig.

    The somewhat controversial author Serge Mol, author of Classical Fighting Arts of Japan and Classical Weaponry of Japan seems to be a student of Fumon Tanaka. It appears you may be able to contact him through his latest publisher, Eibusha. He may be able to shed light on Fumon Tanaka's claims, and help you get in touch with him.

    I'd be very curious to hear what you discover from this line of research.
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