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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2012 10:58am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Last edited by It is Fake; 8/02/2012 11:05am at .
  2. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2012 4:13pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    But, where and how can I find him/her?
    If you can find Plasma, you don't need our help researching ninjas. heh.
  3. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/03/2012 8:24pm

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     Style: Bullshido's Ninja

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Ask Plazma.
    Errr, I don't think there are non-Takamatsu branches of Gyokko-ryu or Koto-ryu. There is non X-Kan branches that comes through Ueno Takashi, but he was a student of Takamatsu. The story is they are Momochi Clan Arts, and in theory there are still decendents of that Clan in Japan, but I don't think they practice.

    Now there are non Takatmatsu branches of Kukishin-ryu, Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Gikan-ryu and pretty much all the "samurai" Ryu-ha. As for the Ninja stuff, everything nowadays leads back to Takamatsu. At this point its a belief thing, if you believed he made it up, then its all made up. If you believed he learn it all from a "Toda-sensei" that he mentions, then there is your source. I don't think there is proof either way.
  4. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/04/2012 12:38pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    On Bullshido, Plasma finds you!
  5. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 7:37am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    Errr, I don't think there are non-Takamatsu branches of Gyokko-ryu or Koto-ryu. There is non X-Kan branches that comes through Ueno Takashi, but he was a student of Takamatsu. The story is they are Momochi Clan Arts, and in theory there are still decendents of that Clan in Japan, but I don't think they practice.

    Now there are non Takatmatsu branches of Kukishin-ryu, Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Gikan-ryu and pretty much all the "samurai" Ryu-ha. As for the Ninja stuff, everything nowadays leads back to Takamatsu. At this point its a belief thing, if you believed he made it up, then its all made up. If you believed he learn it all from a "Toda-sensei" that he mentions, then there is your source. I don't think there is proof either way.

    Hi Plasma.

    Good answer, thanks...

    And yes, you are right: There is the figure of Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda but nobody knows anything about him exept what Takamatsu told, so I think he is not real. A Bujinkan Shihan named Kacem Zoughari report about a grave that he found with the name Toda in it. It could be an interesting piece of evidence but still not proving anything. It could be of any Toda member (just like talking about a John Doe thing) and there is no address, no photo, no more support evidence about the subject it self. Just speculation.

    I think that Takamatsu made-up the 900-years-old-Togakure-story because the kind of Ninjutsu he made obviously was obsolete in the Meiji Era, so his best option was to show it as a classic thing, and then the Toda legend appeared.

    Do you have more information about the Momochi clan? Did they have another legacy that we can know about?

    What do you know about non-Takamatsuden-Shindenfudo-ryu?

    Thank you.
  6. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 7:40am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Hi, It is Fake.

    I am reading those threads very carefully.

    Thank you.
  7. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 7:41am


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    On Bullshido, Plasma finds you!
    Hi Styygens.

    Yes, Plasma did.

    Thank you.
  8. baby_cart is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 10:19am


     Style: xBJJ xTKD ninpo nusubito

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    Errr, I don't think there are non-Takamatsu branches of Gyokko-ryu or Koto-ryu. There is non X-Kan branches that comes through Ueno Takashi, but he was a student of Takamatsu. The story is they are Momochi Clan Arts, and in theory there are still decendents of that Clan in Japan, but I don't think they practice.

    Now there are non Takatmatsu branches of Kukishin-ryu, Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Gikan-ryu and pretty much all the "samurai" Ryu-ha. As for the Ninja stuff, everything nowadays leads back to Takamatsu. At this point its a belief thing, if you believed he made it up, then its all made up. If you believed he learn it all from a "Toda-sensei" that he mentions, then there is your source. I don't think there is proof either way.

    figures.



    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    What do you know about non-Takamatsuden-Shindenfudo-ryu?
    while I am not plasma, if I have to answer that, I have only one word: Bartitsu.
  9. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 3:02pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    while I am not plasma, if I have to answer that, I have only one word: Bartitsu.
    Hi, baby_cart.

    Tell me more about this Bartitsu thing, please.

    Thanks.
  10. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2012 4:07pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi, baby_cart.

    Tell me more about this Bartitsu thing, please.

    Thanks.
    Until baby_cart mentioned it, I had forgotten about this footnote.

    First, for all things Bartitsu, contact the resident Bullshido expert on the subject, DdlR. Since you can't send private messages yet, I'll ping him and invite him to join this thread.

    Second, Bartitsu is a Late Victorian/Edwardian Era hybrid martial art from England. It merged several methods of self-defense, including Japanese jujutsu. It is best remembered today as being referenced (if misspelled) in a Sherlock Holmes story.

    Shindenfudo Ryu was one of the jujutsu schools in the mix. However, I thought that this Shindenfudo Ryu was NOT the same as the Shinden Fudo Ryu school that Takamatsu lays claim to, and that was one of the reasons it didn't spring to mind before. Hopefully DdlR can vouch one way or the other about a Bartitsu/Takamatsu link through Shindenfudo Ryu.

    Third, one of the things that isn't always clear when people start pulling at the Takamatsu Speghetti strands is that you need to increase your understanding of koryu -- not just the Bujinkan schools. This question about whether or not Bartitsu and Takamatsuden are related through Shindenfudo Ryu is just one example. Two, three, or more schools could exist with the exact same name and not be related at all. One way things could be kept straight is through the use of kanji. Often the different schools used different characters to write their names. It would be easy to get caught in the trap of assuming Bartitsu and Takamatsuden lineages are related if you hear both claim Shindenfudo Ryu. You have to dig a little deeper to make sure it is the same Ryu; if you don't know that more than one ryu exists with the name, it may never occur to you.
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