TAKAMATSUDEN RYU-HA: Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu (Information required)

[kendamu]

Why does everyone who questions Hatsumi's credentials always get challenged to "go to Japan and read the scrolls yourself" or whatever?

[It is Fake]

Well, when you make a fallacious argument, you need a trump card.

[Troy Wideman]

Why does everyone who questions Hatsumi's credentials always get challenged to "go to Japan and read the scrolls yourself" or whatever?

Because someone that claims to have done all this research but not stepped out of their house to get the research done, is not very valid. A true researcher is someone that goes to the sources he is trying to prove or discredit.


Troy

[DARPAChief]

Why does everyone who questions Hatsumi's credentials always get challenged to "go to Japan and read the scrolls yourself" or whatever?

As I understand it, Hatsumi is largely uninterested in public discourse and does not feel he has anything to prove, which is why nobody really gets to see his documents. This puts the ostentatious in a difficult position, and the lazy solution is to shift the burden of proof.

[It is Fake]

Because someone that claims to have done all this research but not stepped out of their house to get the research done, is not very valid. A true researcher is someone that goes to the sources he is trying to prove or discredit.


Troy

No, that is not true at all.

I do not need to prove them, you do because you are making the statements.

Now, here is your warning. Refute his claims, as he PROVIDED SOURCES for his statements. All you two do is whine about his stuff not being factual while providing zero FACTS for your claims. Yes, it is time for you two to dispute his claims with real research yourself.

[Oniwaban]

Hi, all.

Apologies for A.) being late to the party, and B.) not really advancing the discussion, but I wanted to quickly chime in on a particular administrative matter.

The BR(D)JT scans linked earlier are not "Harvard links" in any meaningful or scholarly sense. The images are hosted on a Harvard server because I am a staff employee at the university; I am not a Harvard-affiliated scholar.

I intend to move the images to a private server soon, to avoid any potential confusion.

Hi, CMM.

By now "Harvard links" is just a name for us to make a reference. Please, do not worrie about it and sorry for any trubble related. And thanks for writing.

Best regards.

[Oniwaban]

Hello Oniwaban,

First off alot of your statements are really not based on fact. I do not need to prove them, you do because you are making the statements. I am just curious where you got your information from. Unless of course you have access to Hatsummi's scrolls some of this information is false. I will give you an example of how just one piece of your information is mixed up.

1. Tanemura sensei do not sue Hatusmmi for the Gikan Ryu sokeship, the court case was for another issue and the scrolls were brought into questions as more of a character assination. Which of course Tanemura Sensei won.


This is just one example of how your information is mixed up. As another member said, what is your motive in this task. What is your connection to any of the organizations. If you are researching this information, did you travel to Japan and speak with these other lines to confirm some of your statements. Did you actually observe the scrolls etc etc. This of course would cost a fortune to do. Typing a few words on the internet, looking at some books is not a thorough investigation of the facts. I gave you one piece of information in another post about Ishitani, I told you the one line had found his grave. So I am assuming you flew to Japan and actually found the grave??? Of did you contact the Soke of the Takagi line and interview him?

So I will end with a question. What length have you gone to research this information. Searching via the internet is not a very valid source.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Hi, Troy Wideman.

I am using the three editions (1963, 1969, 1978) of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten for my statements.

If Hatsumi were Soke since 1959 (four years before the first edition) his data had to be on them. Don't you think?

More as is well known that Takamatsu and Watatani were friends. So...

Maybe I can have some mixed up information. That is for what this forum is about: To make sence to all the information that we have. I am not the enemy, I am just collecting the information. My conclusions are about what I am finding (and what I am not finding).

Thank you for the clarification about the trial between Tanemura and Hatsumi. So, I have a question to make: Is Tanemura or not the actual Soke of Gikan-ryu? (That is what I matter about this.)

My motive is that I am trying to put the Takamatsuden in a legit and credible way. I am getting good stuff about it, but then this points to another and latter story: What Hatsumi had done with the Takamatsuden.

By the way, If you matter: I think that Tanemura tried to fix the Takamasuden by studying with all that masters (pupils of Takamatsu).

About the scrolls: That's the thing! Anyone really knows about them...

There are many martial arts organizations in Japan that can make you legit:

- Dai Nippon Butoku Kai.
- Nippon Kobudo Kyokai.
- Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai.
- Zen Nihon Sogo Budo Renmei.
- Etc, etc. etc...

No one give a penny for Hatsumi. Why? He really dont have those credentials.

This institutions were created by the japanese goverment and the japanese imperial house for to protect the japanese martial arts legacy. So... What can Hatsumi say about? That he do not like them? Please...

Please, read all the thread. I have made my work on the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and I had shared what I find and not find yet. Do your part...!

About why I am doing this: I like Takamasuden and I want to find the legit story about it.

This is what I got by now:

Takamatsu study Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu and Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu with Mizuta. Then he studyed and practiced and collected Densho. By his genius he created Koto-ryu Koppojutsu, Gikan-ryu Koppojutsu and Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu based on his experience, what he learned in China and some Densho he got. He got some Densho related to Kukishin-ryu to and study them very hard. He presented to the Kuki family and they appointed him a Shihan-ke. He still studying, but Ninjutsu at this time and he tried to creat Kukishinden-ryu Ninpo but he could not not get the Kuki family approval for that, so he created Togakure-ryu Ninpo. The story about Toda and Ishitani are because in that old times you need to tell a story for to be in some way legit. (But maybe he did not say any of that, so it could be another person after him. [Who knows?]) All this are good stuff: Good Koryu and good Gendai Budo from the Takamatsuden.

What happened after Takamatsu is an other story. (And is not my fault.)

Best regards.

[Oniwaban]

Sorry for the late reply but I didnt see that this thread had moved until now. Im glad you are using the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten I mentioned. May I ask why you seem to put more emphasis on the older editions than on the later one/s? Areyou doubting the correctness or are you somehow trying to extrapolate information from all editions? The reason I ask is that you would imagine later editions had corrected errenous parts. This at least is what I have heard. Im trying to verify something I heard about the author Koyama Ryutaro who according to what was said investigated the Takamatsu ryuha and found evidence that supported the lineage. This it seems he somehow presented to the author of BRHDJ who then corrected the information for the 1978 edition. There is a 2003 edition and I think it still has the 1978 info in it.

I have not put more emphasis on the older editions: I put it on the three of them.

You have to value the data:

— 1957 - Hatsumi met Takamatsu.
— 1959 - Hatsumi gets Soke.
— 1963 - First Edition. Hatsumi do not appear in all Ryu-ha. Only Togakure-ryu.
— 1969 - Second edition. Hatsumi do not appear in all.
— 1972 - Takamatsu Toshitsugu dies.
— 1976 - Ueno Takahi dies.
— 1978 - Third editon. Hatsumi appears in Ryu-ha where he did not appear before.
— 1980 - Hatsumi is well known as the 34 Togakure-ryu Master.
— 1980 to 1994 - Everything was Togakure-ryu Ninpou.
— 1995 - Fukumoto Yoshio dies.
— 1996 - Hatsumi claims to be Soke of nine different Ryu-ha.

The time goes only in one direction, my firend.

I would like to know about Koyama Ryutaro's work. When you find it, please share it with us.

By the way: Please, give me the ISBN (International Serial Book Number) of the 2003 Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. No one knows about it. Nor Wikpedia have it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugei_Ry%C5%ABha_Daijiten

Now a days, everything is in a data base.

By now, there is not any 2003 edition. Is just a mith. Someone's propaganda.

If you find the number, please share it with us.

Anyhow, its at least a bit reassuring you are trying to research into it. What im wondering about though is your motives behind. Do you have any axe to grind, are you in the Bujinkan or do you have some sort of historical interest? Much of what you write above might be true but some things surely arent.

I am not important here. The only important thing here is the information that we can or can not find. Please, focus.

Your comment about japanese martial arts community is quite shady and shows you either have an agenda or just dont know how this community works.

I am trying to get a Takamasuden story that could makes sence for everybody. If this is an agenda for you, well, it can be.

I repeat: I am not the important thing here. Focus. We have information to find.

Your comment about Mr Zoughari being some sort of Bujinkan administrative guy is totally wrong. He has no formal position and hasnt had one in the past either. That he used to visit Hatsumi sensei and often were in his house has nothing to do with that.

I understand that Zoughari is a Dr. He is an historian. And in fact he worked on the Bujinkan administraitve office. Well, he said what he said anyway... And he said more than that, by the way.

Your assumption that Everything was well until Takamatsu died and that Hatsumi sensei then went ahead and made things up are totally up the wall. Proove it! On the contrary, Hatsumi sensei has prooved in the past all relevant documents as well as photos, even films of his training with Takamatsu. He still has everything, every little letter, densho, makimono, paintings, pictures, everything in his possession. It matters little of course to this discussion if you dont have access to it.

No japanese martial art organizacion as well Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, Nippon Kobudo Kyokai, Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai, Zen Nihon Sogo Budo Renmei or any other has gave credibility to Hatsumi credentials and we are talking about organizations promoted by the imperial house and the goverment.

In other words: Hatsumi is not a Hanshi, nor a recongized Menkyo Kaiden. So, please explain me that.

Please, share with us those relevant documents that you mention.

About those videos: They are only related to Kukishin-ryu: Bojutsu, Kihon Happo, Jutte and stuff. Did you know any video related to Takamatsu doing some Ninpo?

By the way: Kuji-kiri/Kuji-in is not Ninpo. (I ment it because some Takamatsu's photos.)

Regards / Skuggvarg

Best regards.

[Oniwaban]

Because someone that claims to have done all this research but not stepped out of their house to get the research done, is not very valid. A true researcher is someone that goes to the sources he is trying to prove or discredit.


Troy

There is a source for everyone and Hatsumi's fans love it: Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. And I used it. The three of them: 1963, 1969, 1978; and I shared the links. Any one can make their own investigation. Make yours... You will find the same I found. If you find something else, let us know.

Regards.

[Oniwaban]

Hello Oniwaban,

I do not need to prove them, you do because you are making the statements.

I did not made the statements: Hatsumi did.

In 1960 he claimed to be the 34 Soke of a milenarian ninja clan but he never gave the proves. So... He took photos, make videos, wrote books, teach about it, but he never gave any proves. 40 years have passed and we still have not any proves.

We try to find those proves, but what we got is evidence in counter of him. So...

You still claming that Hatsumi is legit. Prove it...! It's going to be a hard work because Hatsumi lacks of proves in favor.

If some one says that is legit and says that have the proves and some one else ask for the those proves, this person have to show what it says that have.

Regards.