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  1. frenchie88 is online now

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2012 10:38am


     Style: Yagyu Shinkage Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, we have him complaining about lies and false assumptions. Can we get mockery to complete the trifecta?
  2. Styygens is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2012 12:06pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Skuggvarg -- It's really pretty simple. If you've got sources for your assertions about Takamatsu or Bujinkan history, then cite them. It's even better if they are sources independent of the Bujinkan, and better still if they are sources independent of any of the X-Kan/Takamatsuden organizations.


    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken

  3. skuggvarg is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2012 2:02pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Skuggvarg -- It's really pretty simple. If you've got sources for your assertions about Takamatsu or Bujinkan history, then cite them. It's even better if they are sources independent of the Bujinkan, and better still if they are sources independent of any of the X-Kan/Takamatsuden organizations.
    Styygens,

    Please re-read my answers in previous posts as its too exhausting to repeat ad infinitum. No scholar will come here to dispute the mis-information Im afraid. I think you know that too and so should everyone else. All I would do is add more stories, but since I dont own the documents the current head master of the ryu-ha sits on it wouldnt make much sense. I would also go against the wishes of those who did share information.
    All I can do is point you, and others, in a good direction. That is, away from internet and to real people with the power to do research (not the Antony Cummins kind of research btw) on site, in the native language with access to the source. Im sorry if that is not good enough for you but Im being honest here. Even my limited japanese reading ability isnt enough to cite texts ( I may very well translated things wrong).

    For you information, Takamatsu sensei did interact with many other people, not just Hatsumi sensei. He left letters, books, scrolls and oral information to many, many. There are non-X-kan japanese alive still that met and talked budo with Takamatsu, some also who are dead left written information. These would all qualify as first hand sources. Check those connected with the Kukishin ryu, the interviews done in the Tokyo Sports paper in the 60-ies, Ryutaro Koyamas book on ninjutsu that was written after meeting Takamatsu, Watatanis encyclopedia "Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten", 1978 edition. Those are a few sources from outside to start with. For inside information I would recommend Kacem Zoughari and his in depth research into the history of not only the Bujinkan martial arts but japanese koryu in general.

    I will give a clue on the Toda / Sword instructor thingie just so you dont think Im spewing **** like so many others. The whole mis-understanding comes from one book written in english. It has been republished a few times and goes under the name of "Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster":

    Basically, the book is built on taped interviews with Hatsumi sensei that MR Hayes and his wife did. Later they had it translated into english and made a book out of it. There is an error in translation when it comes to the mention of Toda and his position at the Shogunate school. I have an earlier edition "Ninja Secrets from the Grandmaster" and in that edition it is on page 98: "Soke Shiryuken Masamitsu Toda was a great teacher, a great swordsman, a master of the Bikenshin Ryu sword method."

    There is no Bikenshin Ryu. It is most likely a mis-translation (this has been confirmed by people who asked Hatsumi sensei about it). He was a master indeed, but didnt teach sword (at least not only sword). Would be a waste since there were many other good sword teachers allready teaching at the school and a waste of the capacity of Toda sensei. It is even possible to trace back what went wrong with the translation. Toda went by the name "Shinryuken" as mentioned above. Sword in japanese is "ken" (like in kenjutsu for example). A more precise translation for "a master of the Bikenshin Ryu sword method" would be: "Biken Shinryuken, a master of...".

    There is more to this story than that obviously but Ill leave you to dig that up yourselves.

    Btw, a quick google search came up with 649 hits for "bikenshin Ryu", many if not most of them coming from Bujinkan sites on the net. Doesnt make it more true though since internet is the perfect copy-paste place. Most importantly; During my 20+ years in the Bujinkan Ive never heard anyone claim Hatsumi sensei said or put something out in written form about Toda being a master of Bikenshin Ryu. The book is the only source... So much for research.

    Regards / Skuggvarg
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2012 2:41pm

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     Style: xingyi

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by skuggvarg View Post
    Styygens,

    Please re-read my answers in previous posts as its too exhausting to repeat ad infinitum. No scholar will come here to dispute the mis-information Im afraid. I think you know that too and so should everyone else. All I would do is add more stories, but since I dont own the documents the current head master of the ryu-ha sits on it wouldnt make much sense. I would also go against the wishes of those who did share information.
    All I can do is point you, and others, in a good direction. That is, away from internet and to real people with the power to do research (not the Antony Cummins kind of research btw) on site, in the native language with access to the source. Im sorry if that is not good enough for you but Im being honest here. Even my limited japanese reading ability isnt enough to cite texts ( I may very well translated things wrong).

    For you information, Takamatsu sensei did interact with many other people, not just Hatsumi sensei. He left letters, books, scrolls and oral information to many, many. There are non-X-kan japanese alive still that met and talked budo with Takamatsu, some also who are dead left written information. These would all qualify as first hand sources. Check those connected with the Kukishin ryu, the interviews done in the Tokyo Sports paper in the 60-ies, Ryutaro Koyamas book on ninjutsu that was written after meeting Takamatsu, Watatanis encyclopedia "Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten", 1978 edition. Those are a few sources from outside to start with. For inside information I would recommend Kacem Zoughari and his in depth research into the history of not only the Bujinkan martial arts but japanese koryu in general.

    I will give a clue on the Toda / Sword instructor thingie just so you dont think Im spewing **** like so many others. The whole mis-understanding comes from one book written in english. It has been republished a few times and goes under the name of "Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster":

    Basically, the book is built on taped interviews with Hatsumi sensei that MR Hayes and his wife did. Later they had it translated into english and made a book out of it. There is an error in translation when it comes to the mention of Toda and his position at the Shogunate school. I have an earlier edition "Ninja Secrets from the Grandmaster" and in that edition it is on page 98: "Soke Shiryuken Masamitsu Toda was a great teacher, a great swordsman, a master of the Bikenshin Ryu sword method."

    There is no Bikenshin Ryu. It is most likely a mis-translation (this has been confirmed by people who asked Hatsumi sensei about it). He was a master indeed, but didnt teach sword (at least not only sword). Would be a waste since there were many other good sword teachers allready teaching at the school and a waste of the capacity of Toda sensei. It is even possible to trace back what went wrong with the translation. Toda went by the name "Shinryuken" as mentioned above. Sword in japanese is "ken" (like in kenjutsu for example). A more precise translation for "a master of the Bikenshin Ryu sword method" would be: "Biken Shinryuken, a master of...".

    There is more to this story than that obviously but Ill leave you to dig that up yourselves.

    Btw, a quick google search came up with 649 hits for "bikenshin Ryu", many if not most of them coming from Bujinkan sites on the net. Doesnt make it more true though since internet is the perfect copy-paste place. Most importantly; During my 20+ years in the Bujinkan Ive never heard anyone claim Hatsumi sensei said or put something out in written form about Toda being a master of Bikenshin Ryu. The book is the only source... So much for research.

    Regards / Skuggvarg
    All of this and you still complain and add nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuggvarg View Post
    Styygens,

    Please re-read my answers in previous posts as its too exhausting to repeat ad infinitum. No scholar will come here to dispute the mis-information Im afraid. I think you know that too and so should everyone else.
    No one asked SCHOLARS to come here and dispute anything. You've been asked to provide sources. Oh and we have many SCHOLARS that post here, so that makes you wrong.

    All I would do is add more stories, but since I dont own the documents the current head master of the ryu-ha sits on it wouldnt make much sense. I would also go against the wishes of those who did share information.
    All I can do is point you, and others, in a good direction. That is, away from internet and to real people with the power to do research (not the Antony Cummins kind of research btw) on site, in the native language with access to the source. Im sorry if that is not good enough for you but Im being honest here. Even my limited japanese reading ability isnt enough to cite texts ( I may very well translated things wrong).
    Ah yes, we get this a ton. So, basically, you get to trash someone with the caveat "My sources are secret."

    There is more to this story than that obviously but Ill leave you to dig that up yourselves.
    Of course you will, AFTER trashing someone and their work. No sources gotcha. Oh, I advise you to stop trolling and read the thread.

    Next post, that is this silly and off to TROLLSHIDO. Either help or STFU.
  5. Styygens is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2012 3:20pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by skuggvarg View Post
    Styygens,

    Please re-read my answers ...

    All I would do is add more stories, but since I dont own the documents the current head master of the ryu-ha sits on it wouldnt make much sense. I would also go against the wishes of those who did share information. ...

    For you information, Takamatsu sensei did interact with many other people, not just Hatsumi sensei. He left letters, books, scrolls and oral information to many, many. There are non-X-kan japanese alive still that met and talked budo with Takamatsu, some also who are dead left written information. These would all qualify as first hand sources. Check those connected with the Kukishin ryu, the interviews done in the Tokyo Sports paper in the 60-ies, Ryutaro Koyamas book on ninjutsu that was written after meeting Takamatsu, Watatanis encyclopedia "Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten", 1978 edition. Those are a few sources from outside to start with. For inside information I would recommend Kacem Zoughari and his in depth research into the history of not only the Bujinkan martial arts but japanese koryu in general.

    ...

    Regards / Skuggvarg
    I understand you don't have possession of any documents or artifacts, but doesn't it bother you that tracing back the information always leads to either Hatsumi or Takamatsu? Those "outside" sources you mention aren't independent; you even note that yourself. They all got information from Takamatsu, not independent sources or other primary source documents or artifacts. And Hatsumi maintains extremely tight control over the documents and artifacts in his possession.

    While Hatsumi and Takamatsu do qualify as Primary Resources, they are also heavily biased. Oral Tradition is one potential source of evidence, but it's hardly dispositive for historians. Critical Analysis of these sources requires some corroboration by additional sources. That would be the proper use of the Historical Method.

    Consider this: You walk into the police station and explain that you were out of town on the day in question and couldn't possibly have done whatever you're accused of doing. You might very well be telling the truth, but I think you'll forgive the detective for believing you have a self-interest in telling that story. It would help if you also produced plane tickets, hotel and restaurant receipts, and a traveling companion as a witness to corroborate your story.

    BTW, I read Dr. Zoughari's published book. Despite my high hopes, I wasn't impressed. There is a huge gap between the discussion of Historical Ninjutsu and Takamatsu. Dr. Zoughari seemed to take Takamatsu's claim to Togakure Ryu for granted; I don't recall seeing any attempt to provide additional sources or outside evidence of the claim. I've got my copy downstairs; so if you can cite a page on which Dr. Zoughari is able to document an independent link between Takamatsu and a proven Ninjutsu lineage, then I will happily verify the citation.

    I do realize Dr. Zoughari may have unpublished information that extends his research. I hope he is able to make that public one day.

    Thanks.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2012 3:30pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    you could try Paul Richardson (who in my brief encounters with him, I found to be pretty straight shooting) who can be reached through his website: http://www.hanako.co.uk/. You can also try Kacem Zoughari, who has done extensive historical research. Try: http://www.heiseibudo.com/about_kacem.html

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugei_Ryuha_Daijiten

    The 1978 edition lists nine generations of Shinden Fudo Ryu practitioners, beginning with Judge Yata, progressing through Barton-Wright's instructor in the late 1800s and then Mabuni Kenwa, Mabuni Kenei and Ueno Takashi. I vaguely recall reading that the Mabuni link was limited to a few of the traditional kata.
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    Is nobody familiar with the Bugei Jūhappan (武芸十八般)?

    According to dictionary.goo.ne.jp,
    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post

    if you have a copy of a video of togakure ryu's santo tonso no gata, please compare this:

    http://www.dlmarket.jp/product_info....-RYU-SHODENSYA

    and about 0:05 of this video



    thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    That character is a pretty weird choice. It's got the radical for road, so it's not too surprising that WWWJDIC and Wiktionary (http://ryouko.imsb.nrc.ca/cgi-bin/wwwjdic?1B, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%A6%97)
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi Gigatron.



    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi SpamN'Cheese. Hi everyone.


    There is an old book: Ninjutsu no Gokui, by Ito Gintetsu. (I believe that Ito Gingetsu was the teacher of Fujita Seiko. Please, correct me if a am wrong.) In this book are lots of information alike the Takamatsuden Togakure-ryu has. But the thing is that even the ilustrations of the Takamatsuden Togakure-ryu Densho -aparently- are the same as the Gingetsu's orginal book.

    Take a look:

    Like I said, read the thread. Next time, you won't look silly when you say something like this:
    All I can do is point you, and others, in a good direction. That is, away from internet and to real people with the power to do research (not the Antony Cummins kind of research btw) on site, in the native language with access to the source. Im sorry if that is not good enough for you but Im being honest here. Even my limited japanese reading ability isnt enough to cite texts ( I may very well translated things wrong).
    I do like your redundancy. Point people in a good direction? THEY WERE ALREADY THERE before you decided to impugn a person's work with "secrets" and "hidden" information that CAN'T BE REVEALED.


    OOOoweeeeeooooooWOoooo Dun Dun Duuuunnnnn!!

    You just repeated EXACTLY what Stygens said IN HIS VERY FIRST POST. Yes, I know it is reworded:
    If you're really interested in digging into this, your best bet is to find people who care -- a lot. But in a Catch-22, those people tend to belong to a Takamatsuden school so you have to account for their bias. You could start by getting the Genbukan version of the story, as you'll find they contradict some of the "facts" presented by Bujinkan folks. When talking to Bujinkan folks, you could try Paul Richardson (who in my brief encounters with him, I found to be pretty straight shooting) who can be reached through his website: http://www.hanako.co.uk/. You can also try Kacem Zoughari, who has done extensive historical research.
    Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...l6sg7PCSmUT.99
    Yep, same damn thing, you just substituted Anthony Cummings.
  7. skuggvarg is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2012 9:29am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    I understand you don't have possession of any documents or artifacts, but doesn't it bother you that tracing back the information always leads to either Hatsumi or Takamatsu? Those "outside" sources you mention aren't independent; you even note that yourself. They all got information from Takamatsu, not independent sources or other primary source documents or artifacts. And Hatsumi maintains extremely tight control over the documents and artifacts in his possession.

    While Hatsumi and Takamatsu do qualify as Primary Resources, they are also heavily biased. Oral Tradition is one potential source of evidence, but it's hardly dispositive for historians. Critical Analysis of these sources requires some corroboration by additional sources. That would be the proper use of the Historical Method.

    Consider this: You walk into the police station and explain that you were out of town on the day in question and couldn't possibly have done whatever you're accused of doing. You might very well be telling the truth, but I think you'll forgive the detective for believing you have a self-interest in telling that story. It would help if you also produced plane tickets, hotel and restaurant receipts, and a traveling companion as a witness to corroborate your story.

    BTW, I read Dr. Zoughari's published book. Despite my high hopes, I wasn't impressed. There is a huge gap between the discussion of Historical Ninjutsu and Takamatsu. Dr. Zoughari seemed to take Takamatsu's claim to Togakure Ryu for granted; I don't recall seeing any attempt to provide additional sources or outside evidence of the claim. I've got my copy downstairs; so if you can cite a page on which Dr. Zoughari is able to document an independent link between Takamatsu and a proven Ninjutsu lineage, then I will happily verify the citation.

    I do realize Dr. Zoughari may have unpublished information that extends his research. I hope he is able to make that public one day.

    Thanks.
    Thanks for your input. I agree wholeheartedly. Its not that easy to provide evidence one way or the other. Guess I just got carried away by those that repeat old, allready debunct misunderstandings that doesnt help anyone in the right direction. I also challendeg the O.Ps level of knowledge when he asked if Ishitani even had existed. Seems a bit strange to suggest he didnt. There are sources, totally unrelated to the Bujinkan / Takamastu-den that cite both Ishitani Takeo and Ishitani Matsutaro, like this one for example: http://ikkansai.kakurezato.com/takagiryu.htm

    Its in japanese but if you scroll down towards the end there is a list of soke that includes both gentlement.

    Tha case of Toda sensei is the most difficult no doubt but still there are a lot of starting points for anyone seriously interested in researching. I know Dr Zougari has done so and found much interesting information. For different reasons he has not released his information and I suspect it would in the end be a matter for the current soke to decide (whether to publish or not).

    In the end, evidence can be falsified, even documents can be forged. You either believe or you dont. The amount of information you need to be a believer will vary from person to person Im sure. For me, I once was doubting quite a lot of it(like many others it seems) but changed my mind when I got more information. Looking in the mirror I see many even left the Bujinkan completely over bad information (I tend to believe they would have left sooner or later anyway).

    Regards / Skuggvarg
  8. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2013 7:24pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    2
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    Quote Originally Posted by skuggvarg View Post
    Dear Oniwaban,

    Where did you get the idea he never existed? I have never read anything close to that. Im pretty sure your reply will be "on the internet" which quite often is a crappy source as I hope you realize. To be honest Im a bit curious about the diagram you put together. Why are you putting effort into doing such a thing? You may end up spreading more rumors and down right wrong information and we surely have allready had more than enough of that when it comes to Takamatsuden.

    If you have to, why dont you start by using the information from the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten (I even think you pointed to a website that has pdf copies of the entries for the Takamatsu related Ryu-ha?). I see you put in Gikan Ryu on Mizuta Sensei. How come? If you check the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten it mentions one line passing through Ishitani Sensei but no Mizuta is mentioned there...

    Regards / Skuggvarg
    Hi skuggvarg.

    I understand what is your point. But I am trying to find the proves and I am not getting a clue. What I am getting is the opposite.

    I had done my work on the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.

    This is what I have by now:

    Please, take in consideration that Hatsumi inherited the Takamatsuden in 1959, so:


    Togakure-ryu:

    (Hatsumi inherited in 1959.)

    - 1963: It appear. But the author says that it have some historical inconsistencies.

    - 1969: It appear. But the information is different to the 1963 edition.

    - 1978: It appear. But the information is different to the 1963 and 1969 editions.

    How could that be? And, why?

    .


    Gyokushin-ryu:

    (Hatsumi inherited in 1959.)

    - 1963: There is nothing. No name. No nothing. (But Hatsumi inherited in 1959.)

    - 1969: There is one only Gyokushin-ryu but with different kanji, is a Jujutsu school and had no mention about Hatsumi in it.

    (Takamatsu died in 1972.)

    - 1978: There are four Gyokushin-ryu with the same kanji as Hatsumi claims, but there are Jujutsu, Naginata and Kenjutsu schools (not Ninpo) and no one mentions Hatsumi in any of them.
    .


    Kumogakure-ryu:

    (Hatsumi inherited in 1959.)

    - 1963: Just a name. That is all. No more information. Only a name.

    - 1969: Just a name. That is all. No more information. Only a name.

    (Takamatsu died in 1972.)

    - 1978: A Kumogakure-ryu with no exposure of the Ryu-ha but a lineage with the name of Hatsumi Masaaki at the end. No more information than that. (Hatsumi inherited in 1959. So, why it took 13 years and three editions to publish his name here if Togakure-ryu was already published in the first edition? Some yes and some no? What is that?)
    .


    Shindenfudo-ryu:

    (Hatsumi inherited in 1959.)

    - 1963: There are tow Shindenfudo-ryu: One is about Ken (sword). No Hatsumi in it. And the other is about Kempo (fist fighting). No Hatsumi in any of it.

    - 1969: There are tow Shindenfudo-ryu: One is about Ken, Bo, Naginata, Koshinomawari, Yawara and Tetsusa. The other is about Taijutsu (jujutsu). No Hatsumi in any of it.

    (Takamasu died in 1972.)

    - 1978: There are three Shindenfudo-ryu: The first one is about Ken, Bo, Naginata, Koshinomawari, Yawara and Tetsusa. The second one is about Taijutsu (jujutsu). And the third one is about Daken-taijutsu. The one that Hatsumi claims as the Soke.

    The history about Shindenfudo-ryu that I got is that Ueno Takashi was Hatsumi's teacher before it was Takamatsu. Takamatsu was Ueno's teacher too before Ueno was Hatsumi's. Hatsumi trained with Ueno but he gave him Hamon, so Hatsumi sought Takamatsu asking for private lessons. (That are the YouTube videos that every body knows.)

    Well, Ueno Takashi was a pupil of Mabuni Kenei, son of Mabuni Kenwa, creator of Shito-ryu Karatedo and Soke of Shindenfudo-ryu Kempo that he inherited from Yata Noriyuki, son of Yata Noriaki, teacher of Terajima Koniichihiro, who was teacher of Brton Wrigth who learn from him in Kobe and create the Bartitsu style. This line appears as Kempo in the edition of 1963 and then as Taijutsu in the editions of 1969 and 1978 and have nor Toda nor Takamatsu nor Hatsumi in it. Toda, Takamatsu and Hatsumi only appear in the 1978 edition, apparently from nowhere. We have to consider that Takamatsu Toshitsugu died in 1972 (six years before the third edition) and Ueno Takashi died in 1976 (two years before the third edition).

    The Shindenfudo-ryu line that I found is like this one:

    Yata Judge
    |
    some generations
    |
    Yata Noriaki — Terajima Koniichihiro (Kobe) — Barton Wrigth — Bartitsu
    |
    Yata Noriyuki
    |
    Mabuji Kenwa — Shito-ryu Karatedo
    |
    Mabuni Kenei
    |
    Ueno Takashi — Hatsumi Yoshiaki (Hamon)
    |
    Kaminaga Shimegi (Today...)

    What I think it could happened is that maybe Hatsumi got Menkyo Kaiden in Shindenfudo-ryu from Ueno Takashi but because he gave him Hamon Hatsumi could not tell nothing about him until he died in 1976, then in 1978 Hatsumi took part and claims himself as Soke of a new Dakentaijutsu school. By the way: I understand that Takamatsu gave Soke of Koto-ryu Koppojutsu to Ueno, so the today Soke is indeed Kaminaga Shimegi. Taking on this I can believe that maybe Ueno gave Takamatsu a Menkyo Kaiden in Shindenfudo-ryu and this could be the document that Hatsumi is using right now. Takamatsu and Ueno were friends (they met around 1945) and Ueno came from being Soke of other very prestigious schools outside the Takamatsuden like Asayama Ichiden-ryu and others.

    .


    Gikkan-ryu:

    I do not have anything new. I still having this (is on this thread):

    Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...riV4CejLFjp.99

    It says that Gikkan-ryu have roots in Gyokko-ryu and this makes me confuse because I do not get how Ishitani can be related to this Ryu-ha so far from the source that Takamatsu have and how can be the coincidence about Takamatsu getting back Gikan-ryu to the source.

    I think that this Koppojutsu schools are Takamatsu stuff (good stuff) but I am not sure about Gikkan-ryu because I do not know nothing more about it, but I still not getting more other sources than Takamatsu's. Nothing out of Takamatsuden. So, I can not tell is legit until I find an outside Takamstuden source. By now, Is made up by him.
    .


    Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu:

    What I found about this two Ryu-ha is that Takamatsu could made them up with some real Densho and his knowledges about chinese styles. He inherited Koto-ryu to Ueno Takashi, Hatsumi claims he is the Soke but have not showed his credentials, so... The fact is that the japanese martial arts community only recognizes Ueno as the Soke and rejects Hatsumi's claims. Other fact is that there is no document from Takamatsu that says he changed his mind about this inheriting.

    And about Gyokko-ryu, it is said that Gyokko-ryu and Togakure-ryu share physically the same Densho, so we can say that Togakure-ryu is the Ninpo part of Gyokko-ryu, so this two Ryu-ha are related. On this matter is fear to say that Hatsumi is in fact the original Soke of Gyokko-ryu too.

    Both of them (Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu) have the same kind of information in the editions of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten than Togakure-ryu have: The lineages changes. And the author says that there are several inaccuracies.
    .


    About Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu:

    This is what we know about:

    - Toda was a Tokugawa Shogute sword teacher.
    - Toda was a Bone Medic in Kobe.
    - Toda owns a medical clinic in Kobe.
    - Toda was a martial arts teacher in Kobe.
    - Toda owns a Dojo in Kobe.

    In fact, there is a year related to this information: 1856.

    The thing is that:

    - There is no record in Tokugawa's diaries about any Toda.
    - There is no record in Kobe city about any bone medic named Toda.
    - There is no record in Kobe city about any clinic owned by a Toda.
    - There is no record in Kobe city about a Dojo owned by a Toda.
    - There is no other student of Toda than Toshitsugu Takamatsu.

    More:

    - There are no birth place document.
    - There are no taxes payments.
    - There are no titles or any other expertise document.
    - There is no grave.
    - There are no other declarations outside Bujinkan that mention Toda.

    So, it is needed to prove anything that could give a clue about Toda's existence.
    .


    About Mizuta:

    There are several Ryu-ha out of the Takamatsuden that have Mizuta Yoshitaru Todafusa into their lineages. I can mention one right now: Hontai Yoshin-ryu. Even in their linages (outside Takamasuden) we can find the name of Toshitsugu Takamatsu, so...

    This is not happening with Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage. Is easier to find the name of his father than his own name. In this aspect I think that maybe Ishitani could exist because we can find his name in other records out of the Takamasuden but without connection between Takamatsu and Ishitani, so it could happened that Ishitani and Takamatsu never met. The fact is that the Kuki family never met Ishitani (who supposedly was a Soke) and even never know about him until Takamatsu presented himself to them.
    .


    Well my friend, this is what I got by know and as you can see I have not found proves in favor but in counter. I started in zero. With nothing... And this is what I got. That is not my fault. The Takamatsuden have a lack of evidence matter and need to work on them (but not with propaganda tricks): With real and sustainable proves. Maybe you can find something in favor. (I will keep trying.)

    As you talk about the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten as a reference even you can check all this information. I had post the Harvard link month ago. Just read all the thread so you could see the process that gave us this conclusions.

    Best regards.
    Last edited by Oniwaban; 1/30/2013 8:00pm at . Reason: some semantic matters
  9. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2013 7:29pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I repeat my post by accident.

    (Connection problems.)

    Sorry...
    Last edited by Oniwaban; 1/30/2013 7:42pm at . Reason: I repeat my post by accident. Sorry...
  10. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2013 8:14pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    He is researching his opinion. He is actually trying to find sources that either prove him right or wrong. In his post he says prove him incorrect and give him proper sources.
    Thanks, It_is_fake.

    I posted my recently conclusions about this matter. I will keep searching.

    Best regards.

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