TAKAMATSUDEN RYU-HA: Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu (Information required)

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 12/27/2012 10:41am

Originally Posted by skuggvarg

Dear Oniwaban,

Where did you get the idea he never existed? I have never read anything close to that. Im pretty sure your reply will be "on the internet" which quite often is a crappy source as I hope you realize. To be honest Im a bit curious about the diagram you put together. Why are you putting effort into doing such a thing? You may end up spreading more rumors and down right wrong information and we surely have allready had more than enough of that when it comes to Takamatsuden.

He is researching his opinion. He is actually trying to find sources that either prove him right or wrong. In his post he says

Although it may need corrections, it will serve to make us a better idea of the Takamatsuden panorama without some lies and propaganda.

prove him incorrect and give him proper sources.

**skuggvarg** · Posted On: 12/27/2012 1:19pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

He is researching his opinion. He is actually trying to find sources that either prove him right or wrong.prove him incorrect and give him proper sources.

His research is flawed from the very beginning. What good is it to replace what he calls "lies and propaganda" with bad research that only adds more confusion and misunderstanding. This guy needs to first find someone who knows more or read a book perhaps before posting stuff that is up the walls. How can he unveil the secrets of hundreds of years old martial arts systems by posting on internet forums and collecting gossip? Many have tried allready and see where that has led us. He doesnt even seem to know the basic stories that floats aroud regarding Takamatsu and surely dont know much about his family or the teachers he had. He didnt even recognise Takamatsus fathers name when it was mentioned previously. Coming up with wild ideas like the one about Ishitani sensei not existing is quite frankly hillarious, especially when Mr Oniwaban doesnt seem to know much about him in the first place.

There is plenty of information on all 3 of Takamatsu senseis teachers. For Ishitani and Mizuta there are non-takamatsu sources that confirm it as well as books on the subject. Even a book in english where Yoshin Ryu is mentioned and the name of Takamatsus father.

Regards / Skuggvarg

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 12/27/2012 1:25pm

Originally Posted by skuggvarg

His research is flawed from the very beginning. What good is it to replace what he calls "lies and propaganda" with bad research that only adds more confusion and misunderstanding. This guy needs to first find someone who knows more or read a book perhaps before posting stuff that is up the walls. How can he unveil the secrets of hundreds of years old martial arts systems by posting on internet forums and collecting gossip? Many have tried allready and see where that has led us. He doesnt even seem to know the basic stories that floats aroud regarding Takamatsu and surely dont know much about his family or the teachers he had. He didnt even recognise Takamatsus fathers name when it was mentioned previously. Coming up with wild ideas like the one about Ishitani sensei not existing is quite frankly hillarious, especially when Mr Oniwaban doesnt seem to know much about him in the first place.

There is plenty of information on all 3 of Takamatsu senseis teachers. For Ishitani and Mizuta there are non-takamatsu sources that confirm it as well as books on the subject. Even a book in english where Yoshin Ryu is mentioned and the name of Takamatsus father.

Regards / Skuggvarg

Interesting. Name the books, links, or other things that will fix or reveal his "flaws," "gossip," "wild ideas," "hilarious," assumptions that will help clear up the "misunderstandings."

I see the keywords of an angry instructor or student who chooses to destroy something, instead of helping fix the problem.

Since we are talking in generalities, basic stories tend to be full of falsehoods. For example, Bruce Lee created/ was the first to begin cross training multiple arts.

**SpamN'Cheese** · Posted On: 12/27/2012 2:14pm

I was under the impression that there was very little information, if not, none, on Toda Shiryuken.

"Oh, but Dr. Zoughari said his grave is in Kobe."

Yeeeeeah, and about that...there is no physical evidence of that. No pictures, nothing. I'd buy his recent book to check myself, but everyone has told me not to waste my time with it. I respect Dr. Zoughari, but his research can be flawed at times.

"Toda-sensei was a sword instructor to the Shogunate."

And there is no mention of him in any records. The Shogun sword instructor is like a celebrity. If he was a sword instructor to the Tokugawa, why is there no mention of him? To be fair, there is mention of a sword instructor of a branch family to the Tokugawa named "Toda", but it's unknown if this is Shinryuken. More research would have to be done.

"Records have been lost since WWII."

I'll give that to you; Many koryu records have been destroyed because of the carnage of WWII. But shouldn't there at least be SOMETHING on Toda? ANYTHING? How is it that every single document could be destroyed?

Pop question: Takamatsu's dad had him train in martial arts to prepare him for a military career. However, there is no mention of him fighting in WWII. What the hell was he doing between the '30s-'40s?

**skuggvarg** · Posted On: 12/28/2012 9:18am

Dear SpamN´Cheese, see my comments below:

Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese

I was under the impression that there was very little information, if not, none, on Toda Shiryuken.

"Oh, but Dr. Zoughari said his grave is in Kobe."

Yeeeeeah, and about that...there is no physical evidence of that. No pictures, nothing. I'd buy his recent book to check myself, but everyone has told me not to waste my time with it. I respect Dr. Zoughari, but his research can be flawed at times.
About that, I have heard far more than that but since it was the wish of Dr Zoughari not to go on message boards with this kind of information I have chosen not to. Others went ahead and telegraphed the news for the world without the permission and any more substance than "I heard him say". Given that Dr Zoughari has done a lot of research and always makes sure to document it it does not add up that he didnt in this case. As Im sure you understand that doesnt mean there is no pictures or hard evidence existing.

As for the book, everyone is entitled to his opinion but I can assure you that every word in it is based on studies of either written sources from the Bujinkan or other old written sources on japanese martial arts. It has quite a bit from the Togakure Ryu Densho translated about history. Its simply the best book available in english on the subject at this time.

"Toda-sensei was a sword instructor to the Shogunate."

And there is no mention of him in any records. The Shogun sword instructor is like a celebrity. If he was a sword instructor to the Tokugawa, why is there no mention of him? To be fair, there is mention of a sword instructor of a branch family to the Tokugawa named "Toda", but it's unknown if this is Shinryuken. More research would have to be done.
Thats because 1. he never was a "sword instructor"; thats just typical internet misunderstandings, 2. It is not such an easy case, would have been eaiser if he indeed was a sword instructor, 3. According to the stories that float around, Toda resigned and there is no note on why he did so, after which he traveled around keeping his whereabouts secret for awhile. A look into the dates and age will reveal quite some clues as to why.

"Records have been lost since WWII."

I'll give that to you; Many koryu records have been destroyed because of the carnage of WWII. But shouldn't there at least be SOMETHING on Toda? ANYTHING? How is it that every single document could be destroyed?
This Ive only heard when discussiong Kukishin related material. As for Toda, it is said he did not put much into writing, dont mean nothing. There is far more information about Toda than what can be found on the internet. For reasons similar to what I wrote above Im not going to go into any of that on a message board. You have to do the research and find the sources yourself if you have an interest in it. Dr Zoughari would be one good starting point.

Pop question: Takamatsu's dad had him train in martial arts to prepare him for a military career. However, there is no mention of him fighting in WWII. What the hell was he doing between the '30s-'40s?

Did he? The typical story was that he was a small, weak child and thats why. His fathers dreams of enrolling him in the military came later I suspect. The typical story is that Takamatsu allready had recieved damages from fighting other styles that made the military turn him down. Didnt stop him from going into dangerzone though since he went twice to China and stayed there for a long time. Boy, are there stories about his escapades in China (or mostly in the Japanese occupied parts that are Manchuria today).

Regards / Skuggvarg

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 12/28/2012 12:08pm

Originally Posted by skuggvarg

Dear SpamN´Cheese, see my comments below:

Did he? The typical story was that he was a small, weak child and thats why. His fathers dreams of enrolling him in the military came later I suspect. The typical story is that Takamatsu allready had recieved damages from fighting other styles that made the military turn him down. Didnt stop him from going into dangerzone though since he went twice to China and stayed there for a long time. Boy, are there stories about his escapades in China (or mostly in the Japanese occupied parts that are Manchuria today).

Regards / Skuggvarg

So, let me get this straight, after your lecture, your comments are "typical story," "I suspect," and "escapades." Basically, you ripped his information apart and are using the same thing you just complained about.

Either that's irony, hypocrisy or both.

**Vieux Normand** · Posted On: 12/28/2012 11:07pm

Originally Posted by skuggvarg

Boy, are there stories about his escapades in China...

Stories?

Well golly and gosh!

Stories, everyone!

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 12/28/2012 11:09pm

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...2&postcount=17

Yes, I was curious what would lead someone to find this thread. Yep, I was right.

**skuggvarg** · Posted On: 12/29/2012 6:57am

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Yes, I was curious what would lead someone to find this thread. Yep, I was right.

Im sorry Sir but I fail to see where you wanna go with that? Are you saying I jumped on this thread because of what was written in that post? In that case you are wrong. It had to do with a thread about Gikan Ryu which led me to another thread here on Bullshido from Mr Oniwaban. I spotted some very strange assertions and one thing led to the other.

To Mr Normand,

Yes, stories as in you know someone detailing what happened during someones lifetime. Unfortunately there was no camera crew following Takamatsu at that time and he has been dead for some 30 years so this is what we have to go on. Would be interesting to hear how you would else get to know anyting about him? Well, I guess you can just call everything a lie that you yourself didnt see with your own eyes. Go ahead if you wish.

In regards to Mr It is fake previous post.

Yes, I did rip it apart. Not to be rude but every single point was built on false assumptions and mis-information. This in itself doesnt mean I hold the answer to all questions, I simply dont. But dont you agree a good step would be to first discard of misconceptions like: Toda was a sword instructor for the Shogunate (or somethimes the story goes "head instructor"). Its easy for Mr SpamNCheese to attack such a statement because it is not true in the first place. The whole story came from a crappy book and has been checked against the source who supposedly made the comment; Hatsumi sensei. He explained some details about it that made it clear it was a big misunderstanding.

I will go over the other 3 points again for clarity:

1. Todas grave. Yes, there has been information about it. No, I havent seen it with my own two eyes. I do not wish to go against the will of Dr Zoughari in NOT SPREADING INFORMATION ABOUT IT ON-LINE. Its his wish and I respect it. I have to take his word of it for the moment but Im not so stupid that I just accept it without any other information. Dr. Zoughari is also well know to document everything he does. You can check his thesis for example to see how he works academically if you like.

2. Documents destroyed in WWII fire. Maybe true, but for this discussion totaly irrelevant. Said documents were in connection with Kukishin Ryu. That is not conencted to Toda sensei or Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu. You all know this, yes?

3. First, how does he know there are no records? Did he check? I dont understand what he is hinting at, does he mean Takamatsu sensei stopped to exist for 20 years and then re-appeared? During the 30´s and 40´s he seems to have been very active with the Kuki family. The break between them must have happened around 1950.

Regards / Skuggvarg

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 12/29/2012 10:15am

Originally Posted by skuggvarg

Im sorry Sir but I fail to see where you wanna go with that? Are you saying I jumped on this thread because of what was written in that post? In that case you are wrong. It had to do with a thread about Gikan Ryu which led me to another thread here on Bullshido from Mr Oniwaban. I spotted some very strange assertions and one thing led to the other.

No, I wasn't wrong. You are a student or instructor who is defending the non-sourced bio of a Martial Arts instructor. I'm showing people where to find your own hypocritical "strange assertions." OB was looking for proof from a doubting standpoint. Just like you, he used stories and took it a different route. You believe the stories he doesn't, but since you disagree his "assertions" are "strange."

Yes, stories as in you know someone detailing what happened during someones lifetime. Unfortunately there was no camera crew following Takamatsu at that time and he has been dead for some 30 years so this is what we have to go on.

No, it is what YOU want to go by. Oh and nice logical fallacy.

Would be interesting to hear how you would else get to know anyting about him? Well, I guess you can just call everything a lie that you yourself didnt see with your own eyes. Go ahead if you wish.

Yep and that's our right. Just like you are basically calling O a liar.

Yes, I did rip it apart. Not to be rude but every single point was built on false assumptions and mis-information. This in itself doesnt mean I hold the answer to all questions, I simply dont. But dont you agree a good step would be to first discard of misconceptions like: Toda was a sword instructor for the Shogunate (or somethimes the story goes "head instructor").

Notice how three people have told you to provide proof? Notice how you have done NOTHING in this regard?

Its easy for Mr SpamNCheese to attack such a statement because it is not true in the first place. The whole story came from a crappy book and has been checked against the source who supposedly made the comment; Hatsumi sensei. He explained some details about it that made it clear it was a big misunderstanding.

Oh now the book is crappy? Wow.

I will go over the other 3 points again for clarity:

1. Todas grave. Yes, there has been information about it. No, I havent seen it with my own two eyes. I do not wish to go against the will of Dr Zoughari in NOT SPREADING INFORMATION ABOUT IT ON-LINE. Its his wish and I respect it. I have to take his word of it for the moment but Im not so stupid that I just accept it without any other information. Dr. Zoughari is also well know to document everything he does. You can check his thesis for example to see how he works academically if you like.
2. Documents destroyed in WWII fire. Maybe true, but for this discussion totaly irrelevant. Said documents were in connection with Kukishin Ryu. That is not conencted to Toda sensei or Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu. You all know this, yes?

3. First, how does he know there are no records? Did he check? I dont understand what he is hinting at, does he mean Takamatsu sensei stopped to exist for 20 years and then re-appeared? During the 30´s and 40´s he seems to have been very active with the Kuki family. The break between them must have happened around 1950.

Regards / Skuggvarg

How do you know there are? It is awfully funny how you have YET to provide any source for your claims of "strange assertions," "false assumptions" and mis-information, but want everyone to prove you incorrect. Again, provide your sources and debate this with logic.