TAKAMATSUDEN RYU-HA: Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu (Information required)

**Oniwaban** · Posted On: 9/05/2012 7:38pm

Originally Posted by Gigatron

Wow..... those illustrations look almost identical to the ones in the densho. That is some scandalous **** right there. This is very interesting and worth looking into further.

Hi Gigatron.

Well, I believe those illustrations do not look almost identical than Ito Gintetsu's book because in fact they are the same illustrations. Same position in the page, same everything... Hatsumi Masaaki is a propaganda master... I believe that a young Takamatsu could readed Gintetsu's books (and other's) and used them for his first steps into Ninpo/Ninjutsu. For what we can see here it seems that Takamatsu's Iga Ryu-ha have some Koga Ryu-ha tail.

But again, the Gikan-ryu mystery still: It is legit or it is another Takamatsu-made-up Ryu-ha?

Thanks for posting.

**Oniwaban** · Posted On: 9/05/2012 7:43pm

Originally Posted by Gigatron

Wow..... those illustrations look almost identical to the ones in the densho. That is some scandalous **** right there. This is very interesting and worth looking into further.

Hi Gigatron.

Well, I believe those illustrations do not look almost identical than Ito Gintetsu's book because in fact they are the same illustrations. Same position in the page, same everything... Hatsumi Masaaki is a propaganda master... I believe that a young Takamatsu could readed Gintetsu's books (and other's) and used them for his first steps into Ninpo/Ninjutsu. For what we can see here it seems that Takamatsu's Iga Ryu-ha have some Koga Ryu-ha tail.

But again, the Gikan-ryu mystery still: It is legit or it is another Takamatsu-made-up Ryu-ha?

Thanks for posting.

**Oniwaban** · Posted On: 9/05/2012 7:59pm

Originally Posted by Gigatron

I'll see if I can grab a copy of this soon. It'll be interesting to read.

Watch out! Handle it with care or you could be converted in another true believer and become an active partner of their church.

Thanks for posting.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 9/05/2012 9:10pm

Hatsumi has always rather reminded me of Iolo Morganwg ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolo_Morganwg ), who "creatively revived" the "secret traditions" of druidism during the late 17th century.

**Oniwaban** · Posted On: 9/07/2012 1:35am

Originally Posted by DdlR

Hatsumi has always rather reminded me of Iolo Morganwg ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolo_Morganwg ), who "creatively revived" the "secret traditions" of druidism during the late 17th century.

Hi DdlR.

Great information. Very rewarding. Thanks...

Your comment makes me remind the story of the Piltdown-man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man

I had wondered several times about what could happen when Hatsumi leaves us. Maybe it could happen something like this two cases. Who knows...

If Hatsumi were brazilian he surely say that he found El Dorado.

Thanks for posting.

**Oniwaban** · Posted On: 9/07/2012 2:52am

Hi Everyone.

If you are looking for Takamatsuden Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten related pages: There are very good material in the site of Chris McCartney-Melstad at the Harvard University scholars network.

There are available Takamatsuden related scaned pages of the three editions of this japanese-martial-arts-encyclopedia: 1963, 1969 and 1978. Obviously, in japanese.

For example:

Togakure-ryu Ninpo | 1963 edition:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._292-293_a.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._292-293_b.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._292-293_c.pdf

Togakure-ryu Ninpo | 1969 edition:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f...69_536-537.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f...69_538-539.pdf

Togakure-ryu Ninpo | 1978 edition:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._626-627_a.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._626-627_b.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f...78_628-629.pdf

There are also good pages from the Kakutogi no Rekishi (another book that Bujinkan members tend to refer).

Well, this is the main link:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/

Enjoy.

Regards.

**SpamN'Cheese** · Posted On: 9/07/2012 10:59am

Originally Posted by Oniwaban

Hi Everyone.

If you are looking for Takamatsuden Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten related pages: There are very good material in the site of Chris McCartney-Melstad at the Harvard University scholars network.

There are available Takamatsuden related scaned pages of the three editions of this japanese-martial-arts-encyclopedia: 1963, 1969 and 1978. Obviously, in japanese.

For example:

Togakure-ryu Ninpo | 1963 edition:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._292-293_a.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._292-293_b.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._292-293_c.pdf

Togakure-ryu Ninpo | 1969 edition:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f...69_536-537.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f...69_538-539.pdf

Togakure-ryu Ninpo | 1978 edition:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._626-627_a.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f..._626-627_b.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/f...78_628-629.pdf

There are also good pages from the Kakutogi no Rekishi (another book that Bujinkan members tend to refer).

Well, this is the main link:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/chrismm/

Enjoy.

Regards.

How the hell did you find this? This is great!

**Oniwaban** · Posted On: 9/21/2012 10:21am

Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese

How the hell did you find this? This is great!

Hi SpamN'Cheese.

Well, I was doing my job...

I am glad you like it.

Enjoy.

**Oniwaban** · Posted On: 9/22/2012 12:53am

Hi everyone.

I made a diagram about Takamatsuden with the data obtained in this thread. I relied on the statements, the evidence and the lack of evidence that we all know. Although it may need corrections, it will serve to make us a better idea of the Takamatsuden panorama without some lies and propaganda. It is a great point of view, less fanciful and more concrete.

I hope you find useful and that we continue to work on it.

Thank you all for your contributions.

Enjoy it.

This is the link: http://oi45.tinypic.com/2przrx2.jpg

P.D.

Now I am wondering about Ishitani Yoshitaro Takekage. Are there any prove of his existance? I read that he never existed. Who of you knows about this?

**skuggvarg** · Posted On: 12/27/2012 8:24am

Dear Oniwaban,

Where did you get the idea he never existed? I have never read anything close to that. Im pretty sure your reply will be "on the internet" which quite often is a crappy source as I hope you realize. To be honest Im a bit curious about the diagram you put together. Why are you putting effort into doing such a thing? You may end up spreading more rumors and down right wrong information and we surely have allready had more than enough of that when it comes to Takamatsuden.

If you have to, why dont you start by using the information from the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten (I even think you pointed to a website that has pdf copies of the entries for the Takamatsu related Ryu-ha?). I see you put in Gikan Ryu on Mizuta Sensei. How come? If you check the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten it mentions one line passing through Ishitani Sensei but no Mizuta is mentioned there...

Regards / Skuggvarg