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  1. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 2:25pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi SpamN'Cheese. Hi everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    I will gladly admit that I'm with Styygens in that I believe in the possibility that Takamatsu didn't completely make up Togakure ryu; that there was a Togakure ryu historically that was revived by him.
    When I talk about other Densho and other Ninpo documents that Takamatsu could use as references or maybe in total-copy for blending his Togakure-ryu, I talk about cases like this:

    There is an old book: Ninjutsu no Gokui, by Ito Gintetsu. (I believe that Ito Gingetsu was the teacher of Fujita Seiko. Please, correct me if a am wrong.) In this book are lots of information alike the Takamatsuden Togakure-ryu has. But the thing is that even the ilustrations of the Takamatsuden Togakure-ryu Densho -aparently- are the same as the Gingetsu's orginal book.

    Take a look:



    What do you think about?

    Thank you all for posting.
    Last edited by Oniwaban; 9/03/2012 2:28pm at .
  2. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 2:28pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi SpamN'Cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    Yes. The Momochi house in Nabari, Mie. Only remnants of Tanba Yasumitsu is some old family scrolls and armour. And I agree; I love Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu. They're one of my four favorite Takamatsu-den arts.
    Which ones are your other Takamatsuden favorite arts?

    Thanks for posting.
  3. baby_cart is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 2:52pm


     Style: ex-BJJ, ex-TKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post

    Can you tell more about Togakushi? Is Togakushi a name for a person or a region?
    you're kidding right? :RedEyes:

    you are researching takamatsu-den arts and you don't know what togakushi is? judging from your join date of 2008 and first post since joining is this thread, you didn't lurk much? nor research about info OUTSIDE this site?

    I now seriously doubt your intentions...:IamDisappointed:
  4. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 3:33pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Gigatron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigatron View Post
    I remember the first time I suspected something was up when I was in highschool, reading the Essence of Ninjutsu, the opening of that book is all these short stories of "Takamatsu" but with four or five different nicknames. He seems to have this insane legacy of battles at an early age yet it's a different name he utilized every time. It just seemed very odd.
    There is a book about Takamatsu Toshitsugu where the critic review says that it have lots of statements that have no sense. I readed/hearded about them some years ago, I am looking for the source but can not find it. But this is the book:



    Thanks for posting.
  5. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 3:44pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    you're kidding right? :RedEyes:

    you are researching takamatsu-den arts and you don't know what togakushi is? judging from your join date of 2008 and first post since joining is this thread, you didn't lurk much? nor research about info OUTSIDE this site?

    I now seriously doubt your intentions...:IamDisappointed:
    Hi baby_cart.

    Please, do not be mad with me. I just like detailed information. What about if somebody else read this thread and then can not understand a clue?

    I find this matter alike as what happened with the Iga-ryu and Koga-ryu names; and well, we got a satisfactory response about it.

    Can you tell me what it is, please?

    Thanks for posting.
  6. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 4:11pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi baby_cart.

    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    yes, they are different. but to say that gyokko is/seems complete(which is gigatron's post, by the way) is to disregard the creation of koto. and that is the substance of my previous post.
    There are several sword-schools that had to change their curricula -for example- adapting their techniques from O-dachi or Nodachi, to Tachi (katana) because the new standards and/or uses that became with the Edo-period. So, what do you think about the evolution probability?

    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    not much. there is another style, the shinkengata tora no maki, which has similarities with kukishin dakentaijutsu in its kata names and densho format, AFAIK.

    back when kutaki was open publicly(I don't have an account, don't plan on making one), there was a big hullaboo about a supposed criticism on that certain ryu's performance during a 1920's embu. that thread royally pissed off the mod at e-budo. whether that poster was for real or just trolling, I dunno.
    I believe that this is thaught at the Jinenkan.

    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    here. please remember that it's closed already. :tongue:

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=51
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    again, not much. but LOOKING at the similarities, one would wildly speculate now, wouldn't they? :Hehehe:
    There are two Bujinkan Shihan that are giving some seminars about Gikan-ryu. Pedro Fleitas from Spain and Giussepe Costa from Italy. But they say that what they teach are nothing official but what they understand from the teachings of Hatsumi. I believe there are some videos of that.

    Thanks for posting.
  7. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2012 3:02am


     Style: Ninjutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi Gigatron.



    There is a book about Takamatsu Toshitsugu where the critic review says that it have lots of statements that have no sense. I readed/hearded about them some years ago, I am looking for the source but can not find it. But this is the book:



    Thanks for posting.
    I'll see if I can grab a copy of this soon. It'll be interesting to read.
  8. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2012 3:06am


     Style: Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi baby_cart.



    There are several sword-schools that had to change their curricula -for example- adapting their techniques from O-dachi or Nodachi, to Tachi (katana) because the new standards and/or uses that became with the Edo-period. So, what do you think about the evolution probability?



    I believe that this is thaught at the Jinenkan.



    Thank you.



    There are two Bujinkan Shihan that are giving some seminars about Gikan-ryu. Pedro Fleitas from Spain and Giussepe Costa from Italy. But they say that what they teach are nothing official but what they understand from the teachings of Hatsumi. I believe there are some videos of that.

    Thanks for posting.
    There's also some supposed Gikan Ryu stuff at the end of the Bujinkan Koppojutsu DVD. Hatsumi goes on about the Gikan Ryu kamae being utilized to present the narrowest possible target to the opponent.

    So right when you think you're going to see some mind blowing secret kamae never before seen.... Hatsumi steps into Hira Ichimonji and the world face palms. At least my soul did.....
  9. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2012 3:08am


     Style: Ninjutsu

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    Hi SpamN'Cheese. Hi everyone.



    When I talk about other Densho and other Ninpo documents that Takamatsu could use as references or maybe in total-copy for blending his Togakure-ryu, I talk about cases like this:

    There is an old book: Ninjutsu no Gokui, by Ito Gintetsu. (I believe that Ito Gingetsu was the teacher of Fujita Seiko. Please, correct me if a am wrong.) In this book are lots of information alike the Takamatsuden Togakure-ryu has. But the thing is that even the ilustrations of the Takamatsuden Togakure-ryu Densho -aparently- are the same as the Gingetsu's orginal book.

    Take a look:



    What do you think about?

    Thank you all for posting.
    Wow..... those illustrations look almost identical to the ones in the densho. That is some scandalous **** right there. This is very interesting and worth looking into further.
  10. Oniwaban is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2012 7:24pm


     Style: Nihon Koryu Bujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigatron View Post
    There's also some supposed Gikan Ryu stuff at the end of the Bujinkan Koppojutsu DVD. Hatsumi goes on about the Gikan Ryu kamae being utilized to present the narrowest possible target to the opponent.

    So right when you think you're going to see some mind blowing secret kamae never before seen.... Hatsumi steps into Hira Ichimonji and the world face palms. At least my soul did.....
    Hi Gigatron.

    Well, outside that video are not much more about it. Every Bujinkan member that talk me about Gikan-ryu tells me something like "I was in a seminar and the Shihan (name) teached us some Gikan-ryu fundamentals" but nothing special is shown. I believe that "the why" have to be with the Genbukan's Gikan-ryu video you show us. I mean, because if Bujinkan shows to much of Gikan-ryu some Togakure's skeletons could be discovered.

    This Gikan-ryu is a quite mistery. There is something that I do not understand, and is about the procedence of the Ryu-ha. I understand that Takamatsu inherited Gikkan-ryu from Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage, but there are so many serious statements that says Gikan-ryu have Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu bases. Even they state that Gikan-ryu Koppo came from Gyokko-ryu Kosshi.

    Even the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten says so:

    1978 Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, page 214.

    義鑑流 (骨法) - Gikan ryu (Koppo)

    “Regard for Truth, Loyalty and Justice Tradition”

    (Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu’s oral tradition) From the tradition of Gyokko ryu Shitojutsu of Sakagami Taro Kunishige, in the middle years of the Eiroku era Uryu Hangan Gikanbo of Kawachi is said to have founded [this tradition], thus the previously noted Uryu Gikan is most likely another person. Refer to the genealogy of Gyokko ryu.

    Gikan ryu Koppo

    Uryu Hangan Gikanbo … (omission) …Uryu Yoshimitsu (Tensho era) - Uryu Yoshichika (Kanbun era) – Yoshitaka (Genroku era) – Yoshihide (Horeki era) – Yoshimori (Kansei era) – Yoshiaki (Tenpo era) – Yoshiyasu (Bunkyu era) – Gikan (Keio era) – Ishitani Matsutaro – Takamatsu Toshitsugu passed the system to Akimoto Fumio, and to Hatsumi Masaaki.


    There is also another Gikan-ryu but is a sword school but is not Bujinkan related:

    1978 Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, page 213.

    義鑑流(剣)- Gikan-ryu (Ken)

    Gikan ryu “Regard for Truth, Loyalty and Justice Tradition” (Ken [jutsu])

    Uryu Kaiun Nyudougikan. In ?? this Zen priest founded Uryuji Temple. January, Second year of Engen, together with his brother in Kenta, passed away.


    (This translations are not mine.)

    I do not know how to interprete this information.

    After this, we have the fact that Tanemura Shoto sued Masaaki Hatsumi and the court established that he (Takamatsu) is the current Soke of this Ryu-ha, so Hatsumi do not teach it any more. We have to remember that Tanemura left Hatsumi's organization and started his own in 1984.

    What do you think (or got) about Gikan-ryu?

    Tanks for posting.
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