Dilemma with my instructors view on use of force?

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/27/2012 10:53am

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

I personally think the whole, "I don't care if I go to Jail because I'm defending my family" thing is a copout. If you can't defend yourself without also knowing the consequences of what you are doing, while you are doing it, then you need more training. Otherwise, you are just the average person on the street, flailing around and you don't need any training to do that.

All that aside, it sounds to me like you don't agree, on a bunch of different levels, with what your teacher is teaching. That happens all the time. It should be shortly followed with you leaving the school. End of story. Don't waiste his or your time. Not everyone is there to learn to fight. Some people want the fitness, social, or historical aspect of the art. It is what it is.

You are probably right and I am considered leaving, that's why I am on this board considering other alternatives for SD training. When I started going to this school it was advertised as learn how to defend yourself in 1 month with 3-4 basic moves with a basis in Silat. I am not the most coordinated so I figure ok it takes me longer to get those basic moves. Now its almost as if the class is morphing into a sliat class that was orig. advertised as NO BS SD based on Silat. I trying to find balance between researching what I believe to effective and make sense and then realizing I need to experience which takes a lot of time and money.

Heck I don't have a problem admitting when I am wrong or think I am. I learned with the help of this board that I would love to learn to FMA but I don't have the time commitment/money at this point. Who knows maybe I am all wrong and he is right? I am all about objective truth, if your ways works better than that's the way to go.

**Vieux Normand** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 10:59am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

I am willing to pressure test The Shredder as long as I don't lose my eye in class, LOL. I was just impressed after doing research on The Shredder that bouncers and cops use it.

Worked the door at clubs since the 80s. Never resorted to "shredder", eye gouges or ear slaps. Never resorted to anything I hadn't used in sparring/randori. Double ear slaps work about as often as "pressure points", even on people who are merely standing there having this stuff demonstrated on them (been the "dummy" for this sort of stuff, it had no effect on me whatsoever, so I don't trust it).

An eye gouge on somebody whose head is moving (as in "they're really fighting back") may happen by accident, but the percentage is low--and it's even less likely that it would be a strike that would have the exact depth and angle required to end the fight...though it might serve to piss off an adversary even more. If you already control the body, neck and head enough to get your fingers into an opponent's eyes, what will you tell the judge who asks you: "If you already had him, why did you rip at his eyes"?

I am trying to keep an open mind about MMA for SD. I guess I default to MMA=BJJ and I don't want to go the ground because I disagree with many on this site that all SD attacks and street fights go to the ground. That has not been my experience personally and you can watch many a YT fight where I see nothing more than a sloppy haymaker shot and then a clinch.........the clinch occurs because of sloppy technique IMO, maybe I am wrong?

Not wanting to go to the ground is exactly why you should train for it. Defending a takedown cannot be done without physically as well as mentally learning the mechanics of takedowns. Learning to position properly and otherwise respond to a takedown (and any ground action that follows) will give you a better chance of getting back to your feet sooner. As for clinches, if you imagine they are merely the result of "sloppy technique", then all I can suggest is that you go to sources other than the YT vids you refer to.

**RWaggs** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 11:00am

DanielSaun. Where in Colorado are you? One thing that comes to mind is that Enshin is pretty much based in Colorado (there are multiple schools in Denver), will teach you to fight, and isn't a "going to the ground" art. It sounds like you're not that hot on the instruction you're getting in the first place.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/27/2012 11:00am

So i'd say either join up with other MABS people and larp it up- OR check out Dog Brothers/ Paul Vunak to learn things SIMILAR to what you are talking about/interested in- but grounded in an alive realistic system.

What is MABS I tried do a search and can't find a description or website? I like Vunak alot I just never found learning from a video replaced in person instruction. And do to $$$ training with him in person isn't possible.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/27/2012 11:02am

Originally Posted by RWaggs

DanielSaun. Where in Colorado are you? One thing that comes to mind is that Enshin is pretty much based in Colorado (there are multiple schools in Denver), will teach you to fight, and isn't a "going to the ground" art. It sounds like you're not that hot on the instruction you're getting in the first place.

I am in South Denver Metro. I have never heard of Enshin will take a look thanks.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 11:02am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

I agree after reading on aliveness and we aren't very alive at all. Very little pressure testing.

So your problem is that they're not pressure testing, but you're the one who insists on using techniques that can't be pressure tested? Weird.

**RWaggs** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 11:05am

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

Worked the door at clubs since the 80s. Never resorted to "shredder", eye gouges or ear slaps. Never resorted to anything I hadn't used in sparring/randori. Double ear slaps work about as often as "pressure points", even on people who are merely standing there having this stuff demonstrated on them (been the "dummy" for this sort of stuff, it had no effect on me whatsoever, so I don't trust it).

An eye gouge on somebody whose head is moving (as in "they're really fighting back") may happen by accident, but the percentage is low--and it's even less likely that it would be a strike that would have the exact depth and angle required to end the fight...though it might serve to piss off an adversary even more. If you already control the body, neck and head enough to get your fingers into an opponent's eyes, what will you tell the judge who asks you: "If you already had him, why did you rip at his eyes"?

^^^^This. Yeah, I want to fight the guy who's gonna try to pull ear slaps and eye gouges on me. May as well just gift wrap the win for me. A good grappler or boxer, on the other hand, will likely feed me my lunch.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/27/2012 11:14am

Originally Posted by Permalost

So your problem is that they're not pressure testing, but you're the one who insists on using techniques that can't be pressure tested? Weird.

I am new, and confused, to MA/SD. I want to pressure test them but don't want to lose an eye in the process, if that makes sense. The world is grey IMO not black and white IMO. This is one of those grey areas. I really do want to pressure test but am concerned about getting seriously injured and not being able to work. This board is doing a good job of dispelling some of my preconceived notions.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 11:23am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

I am new, and confused, to MA/SD. I want to pressure test them but don't want to lose an eye in the process, if that makes sense. The world is grey IMO not black and white IMO. This is one of those grey areas. I really do want to pressure test but am concerned about getting seriously injured and not being able to work. This board is doing a good job of dispelling some of my preconceived notions.

As was pointed out earlier. The easiest way to work a gouge is using a jab. Next, you get a law book for your area and learn the difference between maiming and self defense.

**johnny_cage** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 11:24am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

So i'd say either join up with other MABS people and larp it up- OR check out Dog Brothers/ Paul Vunak to learn things SIMILAR to what you are talking about/interested in- but grounded in an alive realistic system.

What is MABS I tried do a search and can't find a description or website? I like Vunak alot I just never found learning from a video replaced in person instruction. And do to $$$ training with him in person isn't possible.

Sorry- i shouldn't have combined those without defining.

Martial Arts Bull ****- You'll find [if you lurk this site and read alot] that there are ALOT of people that value ear slaps/eye gouges- unfortunately MOST of them train these- to the exclusion of functional systems.

There are alot of "anti MMA-sport" people who teach techniques based off of 'what isnt allowed' and incorrectly assume that means the techniques are SUPER good.

My suggestion? watch 'die less often' by the dog brothers- and then join up with a FMA- or BJJ school. (and keep your moth shut when you disagree with them- lol)