Dilemma with my instructors view on use of force?

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/27/2012 8:56am

Originally Posted by huge

I'm gonna say neither.

Ear slap: practise a hook. Same thing for a neck chop.
Eye gouge: practise your jab (depending on range of course, but if your opponents head isn't moving what's to practise?)

Those are things that can be, and are, practised with aliveness all the time. Sounds like you need MT or Boxing.

I agree after reading on aliveness and we aren't very alive at all. Very little pressure testing.

**johnny_cage** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 9:12am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

You guys have give me some good points to think about. I agree I should be respectful to the school and I believe I was. My instructor ask for feedback so I felt the need to give him some. I wasn't arguing with him we have a civil conversation. This change in tactics came about from participating in a martial arts events with people that had 30 years MA exp on me and it was do what you have to survive in a slow simulated event. I found that I was was out techniqued and experienced so I went to dirty fighting and the organizer was saying " this is your life do whatever you have to survive". He said he was pleased to see I was not afraid to get dirty. What's funny is the organizer is good friend with my instructor.

I guess part of the challenge I am having is being so new, 3 months, that I am on info overload and a number of things we do don't make sense. I get a lot of information and it conflicts with one another so I am confused. I am very objective in life and so I tend to question a lot, because there are a lot of fakes and BS out there in life.

I guess at this point, since money/time is limited, is just keep my mind open and mouth shut and take what I can and move on which will probably be soon.

You said everything here.

You were training at a place whose techniques you question (because of ideology-effectiveness- and aliveness in training).

You experienced a wake up call-

Problem is- you'e still training at the same place.

Go to an ACTUAL 'self defense' school- somewhere that involves modern striking and grappling- with a Dog Brothers' philosophy on weapon combat.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/27/2012 9:43am

Originally Posted by johnny_cage

You said everything here.

You were training at a place whose techniques you question (because of ideology-effectiveness- and aliveness in training).

You experienced a wake up call-

Problem is- you'e still training at the same place.

Go to an ACTUAL 'self defense' school- somewhere that involves modern striking and grappling- with a Dog Brothers' philosophy on weapon combat.

I agree with you. I know some on this website think Senshido is shite, but it makes a lot of sense to me watching alot of YT vids with pressure testing done. I also looks like something my wife could learn or even my elderly Mom. I will look into that material and see if I can find an instructor in CO or if I take a road trip vacation maybe a one day live seminar in another state. I am willing to pressure test The Shredder as long as I don't lose my eye in class, LOL. I was just impressed after doing research on The Shredder that bouncers and cops use it.

I am trying to keep an open mind about MMA for SD. I guess I default to MMA=BJJ and I don't want to go the ground because I disagree with many on this site that all SD attacks and street fights go to the ground. That has not been my experience personally and you can watch many a YT fight where I see nothing more than a sloppy haymaker shot and then a clinch.........the clinch occurs because of sloppy technique IMO, maybe I am wrong?

I talked to my brother about this question, he used to bounce, train in MMA and boxing years ago and he thinks fight do go to the ground often. Even if they do I have a bad back and don't think I can roll BJJ with you guys. The Dog Bros, I used to live in OC, CA when they just got started. I wished I would have watched their park fights live. Those dudes are crazy and I have much respect for anyone that will fight with a bastone full blast with almost no protection.

**johnny_cage** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 10:11am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

I agree with you. I know some on this website think Senshido is shite, but it makes a lot of sense to me watching alot of YT vids with pressure testing done. I also looks like something my wife could learn or even my elderly Mom. I will look into that material and see if I can find an instructor in CO or if I take a road trip vacation maybe a one day live seminar in another state. I am willing to pressure test The Shredder as long as I don't lose my eye in class, LOL. I was just impressed after doing research on The Shredder that bouncers and cops use it.

I am trying to keep an open mind about MMA for SD. I guess I default to MMA=BJJ and I don't want to go the ground because I disagree with many on this site that all SD attacks and street fights go to the ground. That has not been my experience personally and you can watch many a YT fight where I see nothing more than a sloppy haymaker shot and then a clinch.........the clinch occurs because of sloppy technique IMO, maybe I am wrong?

I talked to my brother about this question, he used to bounce, train in MMA and boxing years ago and he thinks fight do go to the ground often. Even if they do I have a bad back and don't think I can roll BJJ with you guys. The Dog Bros, I used to live in OC, CA when they just got started. I wished I would have watched their park fights live. Those dudes are crazy and I have much respect for anyone that will fight with a bastone full blast with almost no protection.

Personally- I disagree with the assertion of "not all fights go to the ground= bjj not as effective" Also- look into Paul Vunaks biting/eye gouging stuff- it becomes FAR more effective when ADDED to knowledge of grappling/positioning.

Now- if you feel that learning ground-fighting is 'not SD' because going to ground is not the best choice- learn Dog Brothers perspective on martial arts.

They are ALL about dropping BS flow-y disarm techniques- and learning how to train systems that work.

From what you said to your instructor- it seems like "Die Less Often"- by Dog Brothers would be something you would like.

**doofaloofa** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 10:19am

In every class there is always that guy that has to argue the toss with the instructor,
though they usualy dont last long, either learning to STFU or are not made too welcome and leave

It wastes training time

Dont be that guy

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 10:19am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

My instructor ask for feedback so I felt the need to give him some. I wasn't arguing with him we have a civil conversation.

No. I do not know what it is this summer, but being civil doesn't mean you aren't being a dick or not being disrespectful.

Feedback? He told you to use silat, in a silat class during silat training. You just admitted you were doing something else. No, asking for feedback is not the same as saying "I don't believe you are teaching me correctly for a self defense situation."

This change in tactics came about from participating in a martial arts events with people that had 30 years MA exp on me and it was do what you have to survive in a slow simulated event. I found that I was was out techniqued and experienced so I went to dirty fighting and the organizer was saying " this is your life do whatever you have to survive". He said he was pleased to see I was not afraid to get dirty. What's funny is the organizer is good friend with my instructor.

Your newest post reinforces the theme that you aren't there to learn. This is highly disrespectful. Go train with those people that have THIRTY YEARS and leave his class alone.

I guess part of the challenge I am having is being so new, 3 months, that I am on info overload and a number of things we do don't make sense. I get a lot of information and it conflicts with one another so I am confused. I am very objective in life and so I tend to question a lot, because there are a lot of fakes and BS out there in life.

No, the problem is you are reading, going to too many seminars, and asking for advice on this board. Pick a school, go train, and stfu.

You are wrong Johnny Cage, he didn't experience a wake up call. He is still talking about training bullshido he likes in a fashion HE likes.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/27/2012 10:29am

Originally Posted by doofaloofa

In every class there is always that guy that has to argue the toss with the instructor,
though they usualy dont last long, either learning to STFU or are not made too welcome and leave

It wastes training time

Dont be that guy

I agree with you and at the same time I wasn't being disrespectful, he asks for feedback, and then doesn't like it sometimes. We are all adults we are looking to learn and evolve how can than be done when you have this STFU mentality. If I just sit there and say nothing when asked for feedback then I am the fool for not speaking up. Can you see how a STFU mentality could turn a decent school into a McDojo very fast? Don't question authority just do what the master says. This is my life I have the right to question the validity of what is being discussed. I am surprised at bit by some of these responses considering this is Bullshido.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 10:34am

I personally think the whole, "I don't care if I go to Jail because I'm defending my family" thing is a copout. If you can't defend yourself without also knowing the consequences of what you are doing, while you are doing it, then you need more training. Otherwise, you are just the average person on the street, flailing around and you don't need any training to do that.

All that aside, it sounds to me like you don't agree, on a bunch of different levels, with what your teacher is teaching. That happens all the time. It should be shortly followed with you leaving the school. End of story. Don't waiste his or your time. Not everyone is there to learn to fight. Some people want the fitness, social, or historical aspect of the art. It is what it is.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 10:35am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

I agree with you and at the same time I wasn't being disrespectful, he asks for feedback, and then doesn't like it sometimes. We are all adults we are looking to learn and evolve how can than be done when you have this STFU mentality. If I just sit there and say nothing when asked for feedback then I am the fool for not speaking up. Can you see how a STFU mentality could turn a decent school into a McDojo very fast? Don't question authority just do what the master says. This is my life I have the right to question the validity of what is being discussed.

You weren't asked for feedback, you were asked what you were doing. You then proceeded to tell him what he was teaching was wrong. It's sad that you think that is feedback.

I am surprised at bit by some of these responses considering this is Bullshido.

You are surprised we understand etiquette? LOL, that means you need to lurk more and post less.

Originally Posted by danielsaun

So tonight we are doing drills, slow speed, and my guru sees that I am going for eye gouges and ear drum slaps and he says what are you doing?

He asked what you were doing. This is not asking for feedback. Even if I said "give me feedback" earlier this is not that situation.

I said well this is about self defense I agree that closest weapon closet target makes sense so that's why I went for the simulated ear slap and it would be effective, from what I have been told. I said yeah but that assumes I can pull off those 4 moves to my 1, ear slap.

This is not feedback. This is you telling the instructor that you prefer another instructor's or friend's methods.

He says well you need to be concerned about what the camera sees.

He is telling you how to participate in HIS CLASS.

I said with all due respect what I need to be concerned about is the immediate threat and that is the guy attacking me. I will worry about the lawsuit and jail time later which wouldn't be a problem because he attacked me.

Again this isn't feedback, this is your PERSONAL BELIEF SYSTEM.

**johnny_cage** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 10:43am

Originally Posted by It is Fake

You weren't asked for feedback, you were asked what you were doing. You then proceeded to tell him what he was teaching was wrong. It's sad that you think that is feedback.
You are surprised we understand etiquette? LOL, that means you need to lurk more and post less.

I agree with you.

By 'wake up call' I didn't mean he ACTUALLY saw truth- I just meant what diesel TKE said- that if he is a white-belt trying to call bullshit on his instructor- (because of 1 seminar) than he has already given himself enough reason to NOT waste his- or the teachers time staying there.

I was trying to point out that- if he thinks his moves are deadly enough that he can criticize what the instructor is teaching- he should either go to a place that ACTUALLY teaches/focuses on what he is talking about/interested in.

OR- STFU and learn.

Just because- there is NO benefit to chirping up with 'eye gouge!' and staying at the current place where he disrespects.

So i'd say either join up with other MABS people and larp it up- OR check out Dog Brothers/ Paul Vunak to learn things SIMILAR to what you are talking about/interested in- but grounded in an alive realistic system.

EDIT: @itisfake- where is your profile gif from? it keeps making me laugh.